Yep, it is shocking, and like you say, it's not just Aikido but all Martial Arts. Further though, it's not just Martial Arts, it's the whole world! Pagan's seen as Satanists, Muslim's seen as suicide bombers, Cross-dresser's seen as Homosexuals, National Socialist's seen as Nazis, it goes on. The whole world is full of conflict, and sadly, much of it is to do with ignorance. Getting mad at someone doesn't help matters (though it makes you feel MUCH better). As Dave highlights, I think ignorance should be met with compassion, tolerance, forgiveness & empathy, though doing that is easier said than done. Thankfuly, the scope of Aikido has provided me with the means to getting better at it. And the means to hit them hard with a Bokken if that doesn't work
Maybe I was right and Keepmoving & co. who trolled a bit on the start of the thread are all the same guy after all?? Paranoid? Me? Shomen-ate (head strike) as I meant it earlier is a strike with the heel of the palm, which in our style is delivered just under the point of the chin, coming up from below and having a virtually straight 'unbendable' arm on impact. It should come up (fast) from below the attacker's normal field of vision, not be telegraphed by standing like a dalek. If necessary, your other hand deals with his punch/weapon strike. With a bozo charging at you this has a wondrous effect in using all his energy and focussing it on the one point. It may lift him off his feet and send him crashing to the ground backwards. Both the blow and the landing may KO an attacker on the street, or worse, so as a SD move it is extreme. Aikido students are trained as attacking uke to take the technique and 'give' with the blow and fall safely - as usual, a matter of experience. Never seen it learned by correspondence, though. Wonder why?
gents hiya.belated reply due to business. so where were we? briefly; i trained at sensei ken robsons shudokan dojo and if you have not experienced his power and ability personally then well ... point is cant say i didnttrain at a kindergarten! as in all things i gave it 100%, BUT after automatically guarding my exposed face on atemi and flummoxing more than one dan grade because thats not 'normal' disheartend me is what im saying. [ punctuation ok teach?-jeez] shomen-ate? palm heel strike sure. karate etc yes? i never 'named' a boxer. the crack example is true
continium rats hat too rush and got cut off there. so interesting no one has commented on my, i would have thought at least a little valid to some ma's and considering the point in which i jumped in! you respondents have got your nice belts in a twist and pretty uniformely misqouted me and/or completely missed the point. also assumption is as common here as anywhere i see; a potentially dangerous mindset 'in the field' dont you think? i was fortuotus [?] to observe too close street carnage and handiwork . also watched aikido 'on mat' and decided not enough colleration,
Why would guarding your face not be normal when you're about to be hit? Seems like the sensible thing to do to me. Especially if your not fast enough to get your face out of the way.
It sounds like the "you attacked me wrong" type of statement used in reverse for "you did not take ukemi correctly" Once I was training with a moderately high ranking Aikido instructor and he knew I was a black belt in karate already, so as a demonstration he attacked me with a palm to the face. I replied with a soft parry while moving my head out of the way. Needless to say, I did neither fall back (ukemi) or do the classical jodan uke (rising/high block from karate). He could not follow up his attack with anything as I was already off the line of attack and ready to counter him (I had to consciously stop myself from striking him in return as I felt him open). We stopped and only after that, the intentions of this exercise were broken down. He was merely trying to show how Aikido technique could be used or set up... the palm to the face was supposed to cause me to do a karate rising block, from which he could enter, control my elbow and apply Ikkyo to me. A very nice trick, had I reacted as he expected. I see this type of interaction a lot in martial arts... the "you attacked me wrong, or you reacted to the attack wrong" statements. To my understanding, these are not insults or commands but merely misunderstanding of the purpose for the exercise. More and more, I've found basic ukemi to be useful BEFORE I take the fall to evade and be a hard to hit target. There have been times where my hands were occupied in knife counter training, and a fist has flown right at my face, and my ability to roll with it and "bail out" backwards as such basic ukemi has prevented me from possible serious injury, while still allowing me to seize the initiative and control the situation. Basically, I have issues when things are not adequately explained as to the purpose of doing things one way verse another or if one way is said to be wrong but I know that it isn't wrong, just not right for Aikido, etc. On the other hand, I find that doing things differently helps keep an open mind and improve in areas that otherwise might be neglected. This does not only apply to Aikido. Bruce Lee liked to test out different martial arts styles and even he was said to be caught by surprise when someone did not attack or defend as he expected. It is all just part of learning and not having expectations in combat.
Amazing how threads drift... Ukemi another excellent topic for discussion. So what is ukemi ? In Japanese the term refers to "receiving" but that's not what I actually asked... Ukemi, the skills involved in acting as uke during training are entirely different to that of being an opponent. Uke's responsibilities are quite simple. 1, Provide the means of attack which necessitates a particular response from your training partner 2, Provide just the right amount of physical and or verbal feedback to enable your training partner to develop understanding and ability whilst, not being so awkward that the application becomes a negative learning experience (especially in less experienced students) 3, Be able to perform the appropriate break-fall or roll required from the application of technique. Here's an extract of an article I wrote in connection with this topic, if you want to read the entire material, its located in the articles section of our dojo website www.eastcoastaikikai.co.uk entitled "The principles of technique" Remember that much of daily aikido keiko is co-operatively based, we polish our understanding of waza through co-operation, remember aikido is not purely a means of self defence, if it were it would be called something different "aikijujutsu" perhaps. The ability to apply waza on resisiting partners is something which I favour however; application must be with someone who is equally skilled in ukemi and understands the high risks of injury. I realise it is a cliché but aikido waza can and will seriously injure (and worse) when correctly applied on people who resist, that's it's whole ethos. As uke, if the application against me involves atemi waza to the face, I too generally put my open hand up as protection, allowing tori a physical means of connection with the space which would otherwise be occupied by my face, as I do so I recognise and acknowledge the atemi and what effect that would have upon my posture thus, I yeild slightly. Providing my partner has and continues to apply awase then kuzushi then waza, I do not further resist, to do so would restrict my own ability to respond safely to the technique, if however kuzushi has not been acheived, I will add resistance (appropriate to the student's grade and ability) to illustrate that fact. Regards
Well if you want to get back to the actual thread topic then we're not so far off course as some people might think as the current line of discussion highlights an important reason as to why some people may think Aikido is ineffective. And that is they simple do not understand the point behind the excercise/techniques they are being taught because it has not been explained to them.
KEEPMOVING: Firstly, I trained with Shudokan for years and with Ken Robson when we met up at gradings and summer schools. I am utterly confused by your description of atemi. Shudokan follows the Yoshinkan training method taught by Shioda (see 'Dynamic Aikido' foe examples). It teaches students in practising atemi to provide a palm as a target for strikes to the face, thus providing the nearest you can get to actually getting hit in the face. Forget to offer that target block and you get that atemi in the face instead. 'Not normal'? It was more than normal, it is a compulsory part of the technique in gradings. I think you must have totally misunderstood what was taught. I can't see any Shudokan BB I know being confused by a block, but I know all would take it easy on a beginner. I believe Ken is also a Dan grade in Wado Ryu so his guys know quite a bit about atemi and also learn from him the practise of Aikido against knife, baseball bat etc, for the dojo and the street - that's what makes Shudokan Aikido practical for SD. Following up on Aikiwolfie's point, your interpretation of what you experienced speaks volumes about Aikido being ineffective - you need to train long and hard to achieve a proper understanding of it and enough skill to apply it. How many years did you practise with Ken? Ten, twenty? My guess is a few months.
