Effectiveness of the Various Martial Arts It's ridiculous to think that any particular style of martial art would be more or less effective in combat - unless the art is all you recieve from the training. The benefits of martial arts training begins with your very first martial arts class: a better understanding of how your body reacts to your actions, a furthered development of your understanding of balance, a heightened awareness of where and what your limbs are up to. Self-defense is best taught first to be self-defense as opposed to a martial art. The foundations of self-defense are more firmly rooted in science than in art, as the principles are the same no matter what style or form you take. Just about anyone can be taught to be ten times more effective in self defense in five short classes devoted specifically to the subject. The art after the fact will only supplement these foundations - just as having the art without the foundations of self-defense leave you with just that - a fancy fruity art form that you can toss lithely before your opponents like so many dainty napkins or doylies before you go down like every other fool. You all have seen this happen at competitive martial arts events. The only suggestion I can have is that if you want to learn to be effective, is to study both the arts and science of self-defense. A well rounded education is the best defense against ignorance. Your akido class at the beginner level may feel very unrealistic, very soft, and squidgy, however - you are learning things about yourself that you did not know before. Pay very close attention to yourself and your instructor and there are benefits specific to Akido that you may not be able to get anywhere else.
Breakerjohn - try reading a few threads about Aikido and its application to SD and try asking for examples, rather than sounding off about 'Judo' and 'Wrestling' being more reality based . I note that you are a Black belt in Combat Sambo - is this the link to your organisation's website? http://www.combatsambo.com/ I note on the website that Grandmaster Galperin has 60 years MA experience and membership of a Hall of Fame to back him. I don't think many Aikido masters would have such depths.
More likely this one http://www.combatsombo.co.uk/ as it appears to be based in Kent UK: COMBAT SOMBO INTERNATIONAL EASTLEIGH HOUSE 118 EAST STREET SITTINGBOURNE KENT ME10 4RX ENGLAND Again headed by a "Grand Master" Interestingly they do correspondence beginner to Blackbelt by book and video including testing by Video... "You will inform me that you wish to participate in a grading by email or by post sending a SAE. I will tell you the price of the grading and any other details you will need to know. Most importantly you will have produced a video recording of yourself demonstrating the various techniques required. Obviously the better the quality of the recording the better chance you will have of passing. Once the video recording has arrived a panel of experts will view it and each will make comments and decide whether you have been successful in your exam. As you move higher through the grades written work will also be expected. All pupils will be expected to pay for every grade; there is no time limit on when you take a grading. So if you are a high grade in say Judo and feel you can achieve a much higher level then the 1st grade, you can opt for a higher one but you will have to pay for the ones you missed. All correspondence will be in English and finances will be in £ Sterling or US $ Once you have become a Black Belt you can then become a teacher and examiner for CombatSombo, this could a lucrative pastime for you." Quality... eh ? Regards
Unfortunately, what was quoted above says absolutely nothing about the quality, only the price. Grading by video could still produce better students than some "resident only" schools - they also sample from a larger population of potential students and only the more persistent will continue through the ranks of a correspondence program. I hate to say it, but without any other information, I don't believe you have a point. Circumstantial evidence only really applies when you have an abundance of the same or something concrete to back up.
It sounds like an excellent idea to me. I'm surprised O Sensei didn't endorse grading by video and correspondence courses for Aikido. Think of all the dojo fees we could save, not to mention all that unnecessary travel for teaching and grading. You're right, Penance, it is so much harder to persevere with learning by correspondence than by actually feeling and experiencing a martial art with other students on the mat. I think we should start it via MAP, right now. Or we could be sensible. Does anyone believe that the guy running this organisation achieve 8th Dan in Judo and GB Olympic Team status by correspondence course? Course not.
dave humm. obviously the spiritual side of aikido has escaped you with such close mindedness; have you learned that tolerance and ikimi? at the dojo??!! breaker john was making what he felt was a valid point. i loved my 1.5 yrs in aikido but could not reconcile what i was being shown to what i was seeing constantly as an ambulance driver in a rough city. guys- to think that being shown more potentially devastating/effective extremes whatever occasionally in an atmosphere of humanity means you will be able to 'turn it on' when needed perhaps 3 years later; well say hello to sarah at casualty from me. one of the toughest decisions i have ever made was to walk away from the joys and spiritual developement at my superb aikdo school. but training in an empathetic art with overhead blows arriving from a distance was increasing my chances,too much for me personally, to become one of the steady supply of damaged ma's we scrape up! tkd and karate practicioners mostly surprise surprise. hey perhaps you might not like to hear breaker johns point about the effects of modern pharmacuticals but maybe you personally havnt stood and watched 4 big coppers trying to haul a crack addict on full bore to the ground? lennox lewis wouldnt be able to drop them so lock and restaints etc isnt going to be no1 choice against a pain resistant fix desperate rabid animal. not sure much is in that situation ; crack is SO the new colour this year!! you owe it to the lady you are with to have the devil on your shoulder surely. i miss the spiritual developement when i now train in jkd but i was lucky enough to notice that boxers do well in real time situations overall. sadly more accurate aggresion seems to be the best we can hope for, in my experience, to possibly repulse a merciless attack. i get my spiritual growth now from meditation mostly and other activities. i dont mix the two.
Penance, I don't need "other information." The quote included in my own post isn't intended as anything other than an expression of my own opinion thus, I don't need to back my own opinion up with other information simply to confirm to myself what I already know. In my short 40 year existence I’ve been involved in three endeavours in which I've actively taught theory and physical based skills. I am a qualified military small arms instructor (amongst other subjects) and an experienced aikidoist who runs his own dojo. Anyone who attempts to tell me that they can effectively learn a physical martial art (of any sort) to a level of skill equating to a black belt via correspondence course including books and videos is frankly dissolutional. Additionally, any martial arts instructor who claims he/she can produce students to black belt level via the means discussed here, is in my opinion nothing more than a fool and most likely someone looking to make large sums of money for minimum effort. Regards
KEEPMOVING - One and a half years in Aikido is very little. Please also try a bit of punctuation and we may understand you more easily. I have been involved in vocational training at a senior level in my job for over 25 years and know of no physical techniques that are taught well entirely by correspondence, although with broadband and video some training is now able to be enhanced in this way. I have also never heard of any successful MA teaching by this method in some 40 years MA training (Yes, I'm that old!). Your public profile is very vague, as is that of the others on this thread who share your view and have only recently started posting - do you all share the same MA, the same thoughts, or even the same body, I wonder? You can't condemn a MA from limited experience of one style in one art. You are entitled to say it did not work for you, but please don't generalise. Each of us speaks from experience - my Aikido has worked for me several times in SD, but the style I studied was complemented by our instructor by a good slice of work defending against knife, baseball bat etc, wielded in any way the attacker chooses, so I was lucky. I've 'taken down a crack addict' myself, after he had been bounced on the pavement a few times by door staff and kept on coming. Heard of Shomen-ate? It's an aikido technique & it works, especially when pavement meets head. I'm sure the boxer you quote could knock out a man whatever he was on. But probably not an Aikido student after 1.5 years training in a gentle dojo, I would say. If dazed enough, even PCP or crack won't get you up again. The police situation you quote proves only that they were taking due care to prevent him from being harmed - they have that duty. I don't - only a duty to use reasonable force.
Kiaki.... A little off topic so i apologise, but I'm a little confused....is Shomen Ate a subtle name for a throw/lock, or did you just whack him on the top of the head? I train Jujitsu but the Aikido that is also taught at my school uses didfferent, sometimes 'subtle' names for things, so i was just wondering if this was the case. Either way well done
"Anyone who attempts to tell me that they can effectively learn a physical martial art (of any sort) to a level of skill equating to a black belt via correspondence course including books and videos is frankly dissolutional." "Additionally, any martial arts instructor who claims he/she can produce students to black belt level via the means discussed here, is in my opinion nothing more than a fool and most likely someone looking to make large sums of money for minimum effort." Have you even stopped to consider that potential students may have either years of martial arts experience with other forms, or that they may have a local master or mentor? I think you need more information, or at least a little more time to think about the possibilities.
It's a punch to the face, delivered in a manner peculiar to aikido, though people from other styles (silat comes to mind) would recognize it as something similar to what they do. KeepMoving -- Whether aikido worked for you has no bearing whatsoever on whether it works for other people. Whether or not someone has experience in another martial art has no bearing on whether the person can perform aikido movements correctly. And if the student at question has a local, live, instructor, then he would be tested by that live instructor, not by the video instructor. Points to ponder, dude.
Obviously By the way what is "ikimi" ? Please feel free to post the information you feel is relevant to support your statement. I would be very interested to see any cases of credible, quality-based instructors / students who have through their own direct experiences (of learning in such a way) achieved the standards equal too or perhaps higher than the orthodox "going to the dojo and learning from an instructor" methodology. Please ensure when you do however; quantify your statements with factual data supported with evidence. Over to you Regards
Dave, Firstly, I have been reading your post for a couple of months now and have come to respect your opinions. I am not sure what point you were making with the quote below. I have been lucky enough to train with some of Chiba's students and training had a very martial atitude. There are also quite a few examples of when Chiba Sensai use his training for selfdefence. Was his point perhaps that the focus or goal of Aikido shouldnt be self defence? (please note i am not asking you to speak for him, simply your opinion.) With respect, M
Hi Ki, Yup, Chiba Sensei was making the point that aikido is much, much more than self defence. I also understood that he was stressing that students shouldn't use aikido as a focus for purely self defence, the application of oyo-waza would occur naturally over a period of committed hard training. Additionally, it is my strong understanding and belief that if focus is specific to self defence, aikido looses its uniqueness. Regards
In self defense you may be required to hurt someone. You must IMO be prepared and ready for that fact. Going into a sitiuation with a set mindset can get you killed. Take what comes and deal with it as needed. Maybe you can deflect and redirect. Or restrain. But you may need to maim, kill and destroy. The real gift is knowing what is appropriate when. That is self defense.
We've had this debate before however the core value of aikido is to resolve conflict without violence. I myself have previously stated that I'm quite prepared to take whatever steps required in a conflict to protect my family however; that doesn't stop me from training my mind (and hopefully my body) to ultimately resolve conflict without serious or permanent injury to my opponent. I've previously stated that most 'mere mortals' spend their entire aikido life’s attempting to reach the philosophical ideals of the art and never reaching them, I doubt I'll ever succeed either but that's my baggage to carry and deal with. Regards
Is anyone other than me annoyed by how much of that there is in the martial arts community? Really. "Your style doesn't work... Mine's the best... No, your concepts suck... Mine are better... No they aren't.... That can't possibly work... O.O Oh, so it does work... There's no such thing as 'more' effective..." and the list goes on... for many pages. And then there are those who discriminate against particular arts... Oh, and the one I'd really love to kill someone for saying... "Well that guy didn't win any world championships, he couldn't possibly have been that good!" IT'S NOT ABOUT COMPETITION YOU <calms self... refrains from use of profanity... squeezes a stress ball until it explodes> Sorry... just had to comment...
Exercise the following : Compassion, Tolerance, Forgiveness & Empathy and you'll be well on the path of Aiki. Even if we find it hard to practice Compassion, Tolerance, Forgiveness & Empathy ; (we are all only human after all and will reach our 'tolerance levels' from time to time). Understanding and honesty with one's self is equally just as important as anything else we do.
