How can one person using Aikido beat another using Aikido?

Some light Toshu Hikitategeiko performed by Takeshi Inoue.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr7zLwiWhdg"]YouTube - Randori training with Takeshi Inoue 1990[/ame]

 

Exactly, yes. (well, almost)!

Two things I would say to clarify a bit.

The first has already been said and it is that not necessarily the more skilled Judoka will win. I'm not sure about the order of Rebel Wado's four point list, but they're certainly all relevant points - on the day it might be the bigger stronger guy, or the one who wants it more, but I realise this was not at the heart of your original post so won't dwell on it. Others have given good responses.

The second is more relevant to your original post and I tried to mention it before, but was in a rush so didn't explain well. Personally I believe a lot of the talk of being reactive is hype - or the Oriental mystic sales pitch. Tell a non-MAist that you train any MA and you will often get the Karate Kid reference or Bruce Lee shriek, no matter what style. That's because of the sales pitch.

Think of our Judoka as an American college wrestler instead. They also understand balance and seek to throw someone to the ground, but because the West has not had the same sales pitch, it's fine to see it as an aggressive art. I've rolled in BJJ with plenty of Judo folk and they were aggressive as hell. Despite the perception, Sumo is similar, but in the UK people don't think of it as a defensive art, it's that fat guy sport, you just wade in, pushing and shoving. To an extent, the Sumo could be Judo.

At the other end of the scale are the out and out striking arts. Yes they seek to punch, but at the start of a boxing match, the two guys approach from their corners. You can't punch from corner to corner so you move forward, every step, every move, every tentative jab coming out is a risk. Remember this is the sports side and you know the other guy has been training for this fight too. So you can't just stride into the middle of the ring with no guard and throw a haymaker, because you're wide open to be knocked out. That's why mutli-round strikers should have a strategy - often the coach's - how hard to go in each round. In Muay Thai that first round is often feeling the other guy's game. So yes, the strike in itself is the attack, but you have to mitigate the risk. Similarly the Judoka's grab-twist-slam is an attack, but caution is exercised for the reasons mentioned above - namely the amount of balance and control you're willing to sacrifice at that time for the amount of potential gain.

I also wouldn't call arts such as Judo internal, but I could see the distinction you were aiming for. I don't think that distinction is as important as it's made out to be.

 

I don't know about aikido but when one person uses judo to beat another person using judo it looks like this

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzfSzU8QIbY"]YouTube - 101 JUDO IPPONS 2009-2010[/ame]

 

Tadayuki Sato teaching Shomen Ate and Aigamae Ate combinations. Sato Shihan teaches both Judo & Aikido at Waseda university. I hope that these clips give some insight of how randori works. Like Judo and Kendo there are rules to reduce to possibility of injury.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM3SOL116XM"]YouTube - Tadayuki Sato 2001 Maishima seminar[/ame]

 

MAGIC PANTS is the answer...some people have much more magical pants

 

Where's the randori? I saw compliant drills/demo

I didn't watch the whole thing, after the first few minutes I got bored and started skipping ahead looking for randori, but didn't find any.

 

This is a very simplistic question, and the answer is far more complicated than the "what if" scenario you provide.

It goes beyond simple and common and introductory (say beyond 10-15 years) training.

Essentially the aikido guy would win

 

Tadayuki Sato was demonstrating combinations for competition moving from one technique to another and maintaining distance and contact. Yes you are right this was a teaching exercise.

I have attached clips of some old European Aikido Association competitions, some which is scrappy.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odrcysRAF4A&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube - Old Tomiki Aikido randori from Europe (1994)[/ame]

 

Are you being serious, or is this another example of you trolling?

Tell us, how much full resistance based randori have you done which is similar to that found in every good Judo dojo which gives you the experience to base your conclusion upon?

If you genuinely think a straight up, years vs. years / grade vs. grade match between Judoka and Aikidoka, and the aikido guy would win.. you're so wrong you're off the planet.

You'll notice that almost everyone in this thread has taken the trouble to explain their point of view, except you and the other non-contributor to this thread pakarilusi

Save us all the time and inevitable eye rolling involved with your posts and just don't bother posting unless you really do have something worth sharing.

 

Add a bit of punching, palm heel, knee attacks, kicking, more leg sweeps/trapping, basically you have a real fight..... all eliminated because of the rules, but we need them to stop the carnage..... 'Elf & Safety?....
Only kidding guys...

Put Judo and Shodokan together and you would have an effective system.... I think this is what Tomiki Shihan wanted.....

 

Yes that as well....

 

In Aikido or Judo?

Aikido doesn't contain any sutemi waza. Well not in the methods I've studied at least.

 

There you go Dave, Shodokan & Judo do. I would assume you did a "traditional" non competitive form of aikido?
On another topic did you transfer from Army to RAF? Have you returned to Winchester since 1983 did you say?

Regards Tony

 

Hi, Dave! I can understand how fired up, and hot you may be to eagerly continue to question everything that I say, that definately shows in your posts.

However, the question that the OP asked was:
How can one person using Aikido beat another using Aikido?

The OP then goes on to say:
In karate and boxing, the bigger/faster/more explosive/more pain resistant guy will win.

My reply is a little more complex than the one sentance you single out, but since you do single that particular sentance out, let me ask you (and this has nothing to do with judo, since the OPs question was Aikidoka vs. Aikidoka):

So you have two aikidoka step into the ring...it is a fight to the death (or near death)...which one will win? (Hint...I already answered this, and you quoted the answer in your post directed to me).

If this does not make sense to you, please feel free to PM me and I'll see if I can't explain it a little more.

 

Indeed.. Aikikai and Iwama-Ryu mate.

Yes, after I left the army I joined the RAF Regiment, there was a period of just under 8 years when I was a Prison Officer (between military service), i haven't been to Winchester since leaving the Army.

On the subject of sutemi waza, I'm familiure with that within Judo having crossed trained but I'm interested in what techniques exist within shodokan, can you elaborate?

Cheers

Dave

 

I regularly practice about 6 or 7 sutemi waza. Ishi nage (the one you see Gozo Shioda doing in his demos) is a form of / has the principles of sutemi waza.

 

With delight.... Look at most Shodokan clips of tanto randori shiai and you'll see plenty ha ha!!
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Jt3Ekcfps"]YouTube - Shiai Clips[/ame]

Have fun, I certainly used to!! Not so much now, I creak too much!!

Tony

 

I have zero interest in maintaining a discussion with you because you've demonstrated on more than one occasion to talk in riddles and never fully explaining yourself.

Your post and retort here are clear examples of what I'm describing.

So no, I won't be PM'ing you and no I won't be wasting my time reading endless pages of waffle from you either.

 

Thanks mate.. much appreciated.

Edit:

At Shinkei & Towag...

The sutemi waza within the aikido you guys study, is the emphasis of giving up IE sacrificing one's posture specifically to acheive the waza - IE you train for that specific technique(s) or, is the sutemi, part of henka waza where you sacrifice one's posture as a variation of a technique that may not of worked or the situation changes requiring sutemi?

I'm also interested in how aikido sutemi waza fits with the notion of kaeshi waza - the reversal of technique and the roles of uke/tori.

With thanks

Dave

 

Dave,
It's all to do with kaeshi waza, both are looking to get a technique to score against each other, this is especially so in randori kyogi or toshu randori (unarmed)
An old clip of Tomiki Shihan & Ohba Shihan (getting on a bit!!) and also the different levels of randori leading up to competition shiai...
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZw-pw0U3sk"]YouTube - TOMIKI AIKIDO[/ame]

In aikido randori use of the cloth is not allowed so it makes it that much more difficult to get kuzushi. Sutemi does not score as much as a full ippon so is not ideal it usually comes as a half attempted or partially failed waza, bearing in mind that you opponent is not letting you have it!! Well it is if he/she can help it!! It is full resistance in competition shiai.... You'll see a very young and able Nariyama Shihan in this clip....

Tony