Hook Punch questions

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by aaradia, May 29, 2019.

  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You know, I don't think it's always a good idea for us mere mortals to emulate exceptional people.

    Look at 1'31" in this video. If most people threw hooks as open as that, they'd be eating a lot of counter straights. Most people aren't Mike Tyson.

     
  2. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Thing is though there's also a context. Just before that bit (not sure how much before because of editing) Tyson hits with a tight uppercut that almost takes his man's head off.
    THEN (maybe a few minutes or even rounds after that) he starts throwing wider hooks because...

    A: His man is on the retreat with his hands up (straight punches would hit the gloves, tight hooks would miss)
    B: His man is dazed and so less of a threat (less need for defence)
    C: He's trying to get his man out of there (so is sacrificing form and defenses for power and aggression)
    D: He's a savage and even trained and tidy boxer can get loopy and wild when they see a finish (and are also fatigued and battered themselves).

    oh and E: Tyson was a notoriously short heavyweight (here fighting someone 3-4 inches taller than him...if not more) so is punching up and longer than he would against an opponent of the same height IMHO
     
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  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Actually the guy Tyson is hitting in that video with the wide hooks is Jose Ribalta.
    Ribalta is around 6' 5" with an 80" reach while Tyson is around 5'8" with a 71" reach. No wonder he had to go longer and wider with his hooks! :)
     
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  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Sure, all true, but I was mainly talking about him totally not bothering to cover with his other hand. I'm not saying it was inappropriate for the context, just that it's not a great idea for people to look at that (picked because it was similar to the photo Grond posted) and think it is a good way to do hooks in any context.

    His tight uppercuts, however, they were sweet, and work beautifully in combination with the body shots to bring the elbows apart.
     
  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    One thing I find is that lots of people talk about the technical points of throwing a technique (like a hook for example) but then in actual combat even the best people deviate and get sloppy. I think that's just human nature. Especially in a chaotic and alive format like boxing.
    Having one hand up guarding as you punch is almost a mantra and yet you can find countless world champion boxers with their hand less than "perfect" when they punch.
    I mean this guy on the right looks he's a beginner or he's been doing too much karate linework or something. Can't see him getting very far in boxing at all! :)

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I think the skill level and familiarity due to sheer number of hours doing it has a lot to do with it.

    I don't know about you, but when I don't cover, I tend to get punched in the face. :)
     
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  7. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    These days (seeing as I'm attempting to follow Iain Abernethy's work and get instructor qualification under him if I can) I go by some variation of the following maxim...

    Hands are better "up" than "down" but even better being "active" rather than just "up".

    So a passive defensive cover is a good default (and should be encouraged) but ideally the non striking hand could also be employed indexing targets, unbalancing, clearing obstructions, etc etc. Especially in chaotic close range non-consensual violence.
    That line of reasoning (imho) makes sense of guards, hikite (pulling hand), traditional postures, combat sport vs real violence, why holding and hitting is outlawed in boxing, etc and makes a few things, that previously bugged me, make much more sense.
     
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  8. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Of course, but not hanging in the air behind you (unless using the foolproof "look at the birdie" gambit :D )!
     
  9. Simon

    Simon Moved on. Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    A great display from new heavyweight champ Ruiz.

    105 amateur fights with just 5 losses.



    What's it like taking a shot from a heavyweight champ. The power displayed from5.13 onwards is scary.

     
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  10. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Mike Tyson isn't some demigod though. He's the product of training hard, like any other king of the ring. So, I think observing his hooks (and other great hooks) is valuable. The defense argument is kind of secondary, in my opinion. "most people" isn't a very good measure of anything. Most people don't glove up to begin with, and if they do, they'd do well to observe a master, don't you think? I understand your point about the opening and all,l but keep in mind that is a real hook in a real bout. That is a monster hook being delivered by Iron Mike, end of the day. You land that hook, you don't need to defend against "counter straights". Chances are your opponent is already fast asleep.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  11. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
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  12. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Long hooks were arguably Mike Tyson's best technique. He didn't "have to go longer and wider", he chose to often and it paid off. The opponent didn't even matter. A lot of the success of this particular style of swarming hook fighting is of course due to the D'Amato evasive technique, which quite frankly makes a lot of traditional orthodox boxing go "what the...". Any Tyson KO montage is all you need to convince yourself of this. :D
     
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  13. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Here's a good one, Tyson vs. Buster Mathis Jr., 1995. I think this picture says "omg, I have only one option and that is to not get hit with this hook". :D

    [​IMG]
     
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Other people haven't trained as hard as Tyson and failed to get to his level?

    I take your point, but this isn't a boxing specific thread and aaradia doesn't box. I favour a belt and braces approach, and all-out gambits aren't high percentage techniques for most people. My students and I have jobs, families and other pursuits to fit into their life, as do "most people" who post here. They also don't have the punching power of Mike Tyson to rely on putting people to sleep with one leaping hook. That's where I'm coming from.

    But of course it's worth observing him, or anyone else!
     
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  15. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Me personally, I would rather develop my strikes with defense in mind as well. I think not doing so is developing a bad habit. Maybe Tyson could get away with it, but overall leaving yourself open is something IMO to be avoided.
     
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  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong



    An interesting video that echoes much that has been said here.
     
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  17. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Found it funny that both guys favoured a different style of hook at long range and could articulate why and yet they were two different hooks!
    I think that opitomises what were talking about in experimenting with what works for you.
     
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  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Except Adam Lerner is right. :p

    The point he made about keeping the ulnar and radius straight was a good one. Just feeling through how my fist tilts toward palm down at longer range made me realise I'm twisting just enough to keep them straight, and the same with punching above my own jaw line.
     
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I favour the palm in hook so I agree!
     
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  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    ...same goes for low hooks - twisting the palm up keeps the forearm bones straight. You can really feel the difference in how the bicep engages.

    I'd always known it felt better structurally this way, but never made the connection between twisting the forearm bones and losing structural integrity. Interesting!
     

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