I pay £3.00 for an hour kickboxing session, 2 times a week. I think that is a rip off as there are no windows and it's starting to feel like a cardio class. Noone where's PJ's. Cacn't wait to say bye bye to kickboxing and hello to Ju Jitsu!
Must agree with you, I've been in ma pushing 40 yrs, I wouldn't pay some of this exuberant fees. This answer is from a 5th dan instructor teaching over 30 yrs, ME!!
the wrong was in quotation marks for a reason, legally its not wong, morally... well... we all know the what sort of morals many of the traditional "masters" have. But so long as they tell you upfront it's your own fault for joining a place that does that sort of crap.
Can I play too? [Troll] Well Duh! I mean come on a $600 dollar certificate must mean A LOT. [/Troll] Seriously though, congrats Labatt, but $600 for a test!?! What would you say if in a couple years you go to University and they pull that, well yes you've paid your tuition and know the material, but we want $600 for the exam? I can understand testing fees, it takes time and work to run a test, but not that much time and effort. There can be association fees, but if they where anywhere near that they'd have no members.
Thanks for your congradulations. But what am I supposed to do? There are no other TKD schools in my area, not many different styles that interest me. Am I just not supposed to pay the man? I know the price is obsurd, absolutely obsurd. 600 bucks for a test is a complete rip off, but what can I do? Have a chat and say "Your prices are too high, im not paying" That could risk alot. Im vying for getting to go free like you said Thomas. Infact, I help teach ALOT of times, and I usually Warm Up classes. If not, then whatever...., I gotta take a stand at some point. If I do get to go for free, it still won't be for testings, just montly payments, however that is something I Can settle with. But I still don't know if I will get to go for free...
How much is 4th dan? Are you going to be willing to pay that in a few years? I'd bet its more then $600... You could also not test, just say you feel no need to get any more rank and are happy with what you got.
Unfortunately, that is why so many are leaving TKD and going to other styles. A friend jokingly said Tae Kwon Do has become take you dough. I felt it offensive but true. I also noticed in almost 40 years the teaching has been lowered to sport karate instead of survival.
Labatt Do you really need to grade. Cant you improve on the basics and be happy that your learning without the proof of having a new belt. I think you are being ripped off and I guess your Instructor wont teach you new things unless you pay through the nose for it which is crap.
Labatt: Some things to consider, especially if there are no other schools around. If you pay the money for the test, make sure you get certification that is recognized worldwide (for me, I go with the WTF/Kukkiwon). Yes, you pay more money but when the time comes and you leave for greener pastures, your rank will be recognized where ever you go. For a young martial artist like you, I think it is very important to get recognized certification. You mentioned that you are a 15 year old 3rd dan. It certainly seems that you are committed to the martial arts. Some day you may decide to open up your own school so that you can teach students the way they should be taught. Without the rank (not just 3rd, but also 4th and up), you'll never be able to do this. Granted you could just set up shop and teach without having the right credentials, but how do you think your students will view that? Where will you get your guidance from? Yes, it is costly, but it seems that your choices are: (1) stop testing and possibly stop training in TKD... (and then TKD loses another good young black belt) (2) pay the money and train as hard as you can (get your money's worth) so that somewhere down the line more opportunities will be open to you (like in colege or another town). (3) Find another style and start cross-training or begin again in a new style. From a personal experience, I have paid quite a bit of money for testing, but having world recognized rank certification has served me well in my travels around the world, ensuring that when I go into a new school in another country I can train with peers of the same level and not have to constantly begin again. To respond to JohnDoch's quote: "Do you really need to grade. Cant you improve on the basics and be happy that your learning without the proof of having a new belt?" I hope that he does test because without the rank, this young guy probably will never open up his own school and maybe not even continue on in TKD. Some of you don't practice TKD but those of us who do recognize it as a part of our life (same as you probably feel about your style). To lose any chance of promotion and the responsibilities/new skills/recognition that goes with it could result in a lack of motivation for some people. I imagine that as a 3rd dan, he would like the chance someday to test for master and receieve the responsibilities and opportunities that come with it.
15 and a 3rd Dan.... no offence Labatt but it says a lot about a martial art if you're too young to hold a seniors grade and already a third Dan. Fair play though, you must be very talented but the grading system is screwed....but that's another thread altogether
In my personal opinion, I don't think it is the grading system. I think that Labatt has proven himself to a master of a world-recognized style by fullfilling all of the requirements that he needs to to hold a 3rd dan. If you only look at a person based on age, what does that say about your ranking philosophy? Older guys should hold a higher rank because they are "older"? I personally am very impressed. In our school we have a few students under 18 who have the courtesy, discipline, dedication, integrity, spirit , and SKILLS to reach 1st dan. Out of those few who do, very few have the patience and dedication (especially in light of other temptations out there for teens) to stay and test for 2nd dan. To continue on and reach 3rd dan is very special. I have known one other to hold 3rd dan in the US before his 18th birthday, and he is now a US Marine in a very tough job. In Taekwondo, the requirements for each grade are set as a minimum. The students are expected to learn additional skills from their masters as well. There is also a time requirement, during which dan grades are observed by masters and often are given tasks of teaching and conducting warm-ups. The ONLY difference in TKD between the ages is that under 15 wear the red and black (poom) belt instead of the solid black. When they reach 16, they wear the solid black. To conclude... I don't think it's a matter of Labatt not being qualified, and it doesn't seem to be a fault of the system. I imagine if you ask Labatt, he has probably been training for at least 6-8 years, based on his rank.
Yes Thomas, which goes to show the ridiculousness of the new style system. No offense to the Kid, but the concept of the basics can't be adhered to with such youth. I've trained blackbelts in their late 20's who didn't have the true concepts of basic truths. A 15 yr old 3rd dan can't teach like a 30 yr old 3rd dan. Go to other style forums or dojo's and see the laughter of "baby blackbelts" only in TKD. Repulsive!!
Any 15 years old boy unless genetically enhanced is going to get pummelled no matter how good they are by a normal adult male attacker in a one 2 one. A grade should have something to say about fighting ability - not just about fighting ability under a cushioning set of rules and against people of their own age. again Labatt no offense intended and well done for your achievement. Somewhere deep down I'll bet you kept your money in your pocket though
And thomas in most decent styles someone training for 7-8 years is just about sniffing a First black belt.....
6-8 years to get 3rd Dan is that all!!! It seems to be much to easy to get at. Is this a junior grading or something?
A couple of quick items: PTCruiser: about repulsive “baby black belts”, I did a search under Kenpo (which your profile states that you hold a 5th dan in) and came up with age 4-7 “Ninja Black Belt: Zebra” rankings. According to www.kenponet.com, there are black belt rankings for ages 4-7, 7-teen, and adults. You don’t list your age, but you hold a very high rank. If I may ask, when did you start practicing Kenpo and how long did it take you to reach 5th dan? John Doch: according to your profile, you are only 28 years old and have trained in various styles, including kickboxing, kung-fu and Scottish All Styles Martial Arts. Have you earned a black belt in any style yet? If so, how long did it take you? Stump: Your profile figures you at 27 years old and training in escrima and submission fighting. Take a look at www.escrima-concepts.com/escrima.htm and read about Rene Latosa, a famous escrima guy who was acknowledged as an expert at age 21 and began training as a child. How long have you been training and have you earned a black belt yet? Being under 18 doesn’t make you incapable of fighting. Look at the child soldiers in Africa, the youth brigades in Israel, the Viet Cong in the Vietnam War. The ones under 18 did pretty well. In the US, you can join the military at age 17 and fight for your country. The training can be very intense for any age soldier. One difference in Taekwondo is that we do offer training and ranking for people under 15 (and for older students as well). Training sometimes is done within age and size similarities and sometimes all mixed. I personally know some 15-17 year old black belts who could do very well against adult black belts. Age difference is one thing, for example between a 30 year old and a 4 year old, most likely the 30 year old should win, as long as they are both in functioning shape and able to move. However, between a 28 year old and a 17 year old, I would say it definitely comes down to individual abilities and differences. Some people grow faster than others… I hit my full height of 5’9” and a weight of 175 pounds at age 15. I fought older guys (adults) on the street and usually won. I won based on skill and ability, not age. Please remember also that Taekwondo ultimately is for self defence… some people do study it to compete in the ring in sparring or poomsae, and they usually fight according to weight and age categories (like Muay Thai, Boxing, Karate, Judo, etc. do). They are divided by rank. It is important for kids to be able to defend themselves against similar ages (most common attacks in school) and against adults. I WILL NOT deny them self defence training because they are deemed “too young” by people who have no clue. By the way, the argument by JohnDoch about seeing other threads in other forums to see what is being said about “baby blackbelts” is pretty funny. First of all, we are discussing Taekwondo… other forums discuss other styles. The people who participate on other forums are probably not going to support Taekwondo in a rationale way because they are not Taekwondo practioners. Besides, just because someone says something doesn’t make it true. However, if we follow this logic, we can look in the “most dangerous martial art” thread and see that many people picked Muay Thai… which, by the way, offers instruction and full contact competition to juniors! And lastly, about the 6-8 years to 3rd dan… yes, in TKD it is possible. Usually it takes 2-3 years for promotion to 1st dan. This usually involves training at least 10 hours weekly. After 1st dan, there is a mandatory wait of at least 1 year, during which time, you must continue training and help with warm-ups and assist in teaching. After that, there is a 2 year wait from 2nd to 3rd dan minimum. So, yes, if you trained often and hard and made every testing, you could reach 3rd dan in 6 years at the earliest. My guess is that Labatt probably started TKD at age 7 or 8. By the way, I am seriously interested in learning how long Stump, JohnDoch, and PTCruiser took to attain black belts… and no, I am not trying to put you down… just curious.
By the way... Stump wrote: "Any 15 years old boy unless genetically enhanced is going to get pummelled no matter how good they are by a normal adult male attacker in a one 2 one. A grade should have something to say about fighting ability - not just about fighting ability under a cushioning set of rules and against people of their own age." I have to say that I don't agree with this assessment. If the idea that a larger attacker will always beat a smaller attacker is taught in your school, I feel bad for the students. I would hate to tell the women's self defence group this news. What do you tell the small guys in the class? "You can't win because you are too small... go eat a Big Mac"? Also, what is a "normal male attacker"... do you have a standard size for one... or standard skill level... or standard speed... and so on. Your final point of " a grade should have something to say about fighting ability..." is the part that I agree with. You and some of the other posters have essentailly scoffed at this guy's fighting ability based on what? The skill you witnessed? His speed? His power? His size??????? Nope... you guys discounted him based on age. If he has earned a 3rd dan in Taekwondo... the style that I follow and that I know the testing requirements for, then I assume he has pretty good fighting skills. I don't know for sure, but I imagine (by the way, read the post about the sparring part in Labatt's earlier post in this thread). One last thing to keep in mind is that sometimes it takes people longer to get dan grades because they cross train, take a break for a while, and so on. If you dedicate yourself to 2 classes a night for 2-3 years in Taekwondo, you should be able to test for your black belt, assuming you learn well, practice hard, and have good instructors. Even if you've been training for 8 or 9 years, but you train in 3 or 4 styles, I'd almost bet that you might not have tested for black belt yet. Another thing, search the post on "When did you strt your martial arts training" and see when many of the posters began... I saw ages ranging from 4 to late 30s.
I started when I Was 7. I skipped about 2 testings, and basicly an entire belt level. I reached poom belt, then I reached 1st dan, then 2 yrs later 10 gups later(on one testings I got rid of 3 gups, I was at my top at that time) , I reached 2nd dan. 3 and a half years later( ya, i stupidly took a year off and missed 4! testings...I've never been the same again.) , I reached 3rd dan. I've been in it for 8 years. A 30 year old 3rd dan could teach better than a 15 yr old 3rd dan??? In my schools, we have a 5th dan 40 year old black belt. He teaches classe's. Everysingle time he forgets something(which is often) he asks me, and I explain it to the class. Infact, I usually end up leading the class, when he can't remember. Some people learn faster! Ever though of that? I remember learning Koreo, Taibek, Kungung....on my own. I watched, and I went home and in 1 hour I learned it. Just by teaching my self. (that's a whole new issue, learning at a faster pace, while everyone else isn't) Yes, this 15 year old can teach better than alot of people. Size, obviously im gonna get over powered by a guy twice my size. Talent, on the other hand, natural talent, you can't fake it, you got it or you don't. I'll give you an example, there is a student who when I first started taught me. He was a 1st dan black belt. I am now ahead of him, and teach him. The issue is giving away black belts to little "Baby kids" that do not diserve it!!!! Sorry to be brutally honest, my god these kids SUCK! They can't throw a front kick properly without loosing balance. Any way, I actually appreciate your critisism against me. It should be thrown out there, and discussed. I have already tested. I wan't your opinion on something guys. I pay this testing, I just pay it, make sure I get the certification ecetera. But, if I get to go free, no monthly payments, just testings I have to pay(gup testings are about hundreds something 1nce every 6 months) Do you think that is something you could settle for?
I agree that age has nothing to do with talent, I also help teach Kendo, I know it is much different than TKD, but still saying I am not worthy of a Dan grade is a pretty stupid thing to say, I have worked my ass off twice as hard as some of the Dans who are older than me, when fighting with swords size doesn't really matter as much but even if it did I am bigger than most of the people who I do Kendo with, just because we are young doesn't mean we are small and wimpy and age has NOTHING to do with talent (to a certain extent).
