Well, as a small example I'm thinking about things like when I did believe in qi, I believed that I wouldn't get as ill, or that I'd fight off infection sooner - or when someone hit me I'd feel like my qi was absorbing it - it made me feel stronger. You could never test that kind of thing. The greatest mistake qi believers ever made was falling in to something called "analogy osmosis" whereby the explanation leaks in to the the think explained, so that the thing explained is then seen to posses characteristics of the analogous party. In simpler words, in this case, if you say qi is a kind of energy, the properties of energy are then applied to qi.
True but this isn't what I want to test anyway. True but my test scenario doesn't do that and it merely test the outcome and not the method employed therefore this issue is unimportant. The Bear.
I don't agree with this. If the Qigong was as effective as western exercise there may still be reasons for using it as an alternative. If a patient preferred doing Qigong to western exercise they would be more likely to stick to the program. There may also be cost issues (e.g. if the western exercises required the use of a gym).
I agree with that in principle. However, the time/cost method to train a Qigong master verses a physiotherapist push it back into the western method. For specialist applications and assuming is was as good then I agree there could still be an argument for it. The Bear.
Why would you want to? It has no relevance. We are trying to stay focussed on clinical outcomes. The Bear.
With regards to any potential study, gotta keep in mind that there are thousands of different qigong methods, some as different as apples and beef. Also, the methods that I am familiar with are quite hard to train and require a lot of willpower and concentration, as a result the timescale for positive effects differ from person to person, though in the long run the results are generally the same for all individuals. So yeah, whatever that means...
i don't want quantify your beliefs. just find out whether or not they are true. you said it made you beleive you would be less ill - testable you said it made you feel as if you could take hits better - testable
Is it though? Would you not have to test the same individual before and after such "belief" was taken up?
What I mean is, if you were to find out whether an individual would be less ill before and after undertaking qigong practice, would you not need two identical individuals living identical lives, the only difference between the two being qigong practice? Having two separate groups would be quite different IMO, i.e. illness affects and feels different to different people, and qigong affects people differently and to varying degrees also. Such a study would only give a very general view and I would say it would not be very accurate. Perhaps it would be better to isolate two twins in identical environments, have one do western exercise, one do qigong and after some profficency is gained, expose both of them to some pathogen/virus/etc and see who recovers how and observe who looks more lively etc.
This isn't about individual treatment. This is about using qigong for mass treatment. Therefore my methodology holds. If the results are wildly variable then it would have to be rejected as a medical treatment anyway. The Bear.
That makes sense for "mass treatment", but still I would say due to the nature of qigong, illness, and perception, any result would be very general. The thing is, due to the sheer variation of qigong, there are various methods to achieve the same result, some slower, some faster, some with negative effects, etc, etc. Normally, a good teacher will teach qigong to an individual based on their disposition, and if this method is unsatisfactory it can be switched to another. So this would not really go for "mass treatment", unless you had everyone supervised on a very regular basis, plus you would have to make sure that everyone practiced everyday, which is unlikely due to peoples weak will. I don't really think qigong can be packaged and sold, it does not fit in to western commercialized and packaged mentality. Its something that is quite personal and individual. Hence I think the twins study I proposed would tell us most about what qigong does.
Well, if I truly believed it, how could I truly stop believing it, just for the sake of a few minutes of test? That being the by, you're grasping the surface of what I'm saying. A belief can indeed make someone achieve a higher potential or outcome, or resist pain longer, or get to their feet when others wouldn't. None of that is clinically testable because "heart" has to have a reason - a pride, a fear, a desire... The "test" is in the lengths which people go to for their beliefs, or the fighter who shows trememdous heart and desire. Will is a difficult thing to test - you can never test a belief, or will - only its results - "will" is emotional information, and does not "measure" through scientific instruments.
I agree with what ITS is saying, The nature of Qigong is quite different from most western modalities. If you were to incorporate Qigong within the study you would have to allow the practitioner do Medical Qigong as it was intended to be, fluid, dynamic and changing. This is b/c as a individual progresses they themselves (or the very nature of their disease) could change, thereby changing the type of Qigong prescribed. It is very rare for a Qigong teacher to prescribe a Qigong for a set amount of time and have the student do the exact same Qigong for say a week, month or year. The Patient would be re-evaluated on a set basis and told to continue the Qigong, stop the Qigong or Change the Qigong. Imo, if you were to set up PBs scenario (which for the most part I still do like) you would have to give almost full control to the Qigong practitioner to be able to change Qigong's as he/she sees fit. Basically allow them to do their full practice. On the other end you would allow a PT or someone similar to work with Western exercise and would have to make the placebo/fake group as real as possible and do the same. This would test Qigong as a Phsical exercise, but then you have the difficulties of testing "How" it works, is it Qi? Visualizations/Mind? Physical exercise? Some modalities of Qigong would incorporate Physical Qigong (by way of doing exercise) where as others may incorporate visualizations (ala Zhan Zhuang with visualization). Would you further separate Qigong groups from this then??? To stay true to PBs proposed scenario, I would say no, b/c depending on the condition of the patient (as diagnosed by the qigong doctor) he/she may incorporate both at any given time during the treatment regimen. So if you took away one of the "tools" of treatment you would also skew results. Just a few thoughts, ITS has the right idea, but imo, if the Qigong PRACTITIONER is effective or well trained, the style/method of Qigong should not matter as much.
I would add here that will and belief are two things again, that are more anecdotal at best. Having the will to do extended hunger fasts, the will to do certain training regimens day in and day out, the will to survive, plain and simple as FQ points is mostly only in the result.
Absolutely, I would expect this since we want the best result possible from Qigong. No the qigong can use any method it wishes. phyiscal and/or mental within the duration of the trial. Since it's only outcome we are interested in. The fake Qigong should just play on people perceptions on what they think qigong is but have a check with the qigong master that they haven't accidentially stumbled on the a correct method. This will address all your concerns, also the sample will be large enough to average out any artifact results. Agree? The Qigong master will have complete freedom of treatment and have a say on what is not qigong. Surely there cannot be anymore objections. The Bear.
