hi everbody, interesting posts all round. i can understand people skepticism about the application of proper trials. no, things aren't fairly done all of the time to all aspects of medicine. but as a model to apply, fair scientific testing would be the only one to be useful. instead of argueing about the short coming of medicines/goverments applications of scientific testing. as all sides can see faults with that. if you think the scientific method is severely lacking, can you offer a practical alternative? and can we note that once again, the strongest defence of qi stuff is anectdotal evidence again? lets have some fun here; myself (and polar bear i'm sure) although skeptical are open minded. how would you devise an experiment to help investigate qi?
Although I am skeptical about it myself some testing they have done and are doing in china is as follows: - A Qigong "Master" is able to emit a frequency of Qi onto x-ray palates in the exact imprint and size of their hand. - One doctor that is doing research in china (whom got her phd in the U.S) is currently having Qigong masters emit Qi on bacteria. By all accounts they are able to emit Qi and kill bacteria, inhibit its growth or promote it's growth. (I posted about this in a previous Qi discussion thread) - One test of Qigong doctor in china is whether or not they can heat up a cold glass of water in a set amount of time. Sometimes with touch sometimes w/o. - One thing I have seen is that they are able to "in case" a candle flame (so as there is no air effecting it) and Qigong masters are able to bend the flame at will. So at least in china they are taking the studies a bit further. They have also measured the output of "Qi" from a Qigong Master's body as thermal, magnetic and other forms of measurable energy. I have seen some of these studies published (I have posted some in previous posts), others I will admit I am a bit more skeptical of. The main theory is that they are able to use their bioelectrical field to SOMEWHAT effect the physical world. Though to my knowledge none have demonstrated, psychic visions, reading minds, or controlling other people. Imo, these claims are a bit harder to swallow. I was curious though, isn't this what science is all about Don't they seek to exp. certain ideas of phenomena by replicating it in a lab or clinical setting I fail to see many scientists saying "Well this is the theory, we don't need to experience it, the book says it is so." Modern day China actually uses a combination of ALL methods of Qigong, Herbs, Acupuncture AND Chemo etc. They are showing less side effects of radiation with a greater chance of cancer survival. Everyone has it in their heads that in China or the Aleternative practitioners say practice only ONE thing. This is wrong!!!! Alternative therapies are predominantly used as supportive therapies with disease. Once again THERE IS NO SINGLE MAGIC BULLET!!!! If you want my sources it is from Ph. D's from China who have run the heads of their respective departments in hospital settings for 10+ years. I will take their word for it rather than someone who just seeks to do experiments. Some think this is bogus, but if you want to learn about the Vietnam war would you rather read it from a book written by someone who may not of even been alive during the time? Or a Vet that lived it?
hi there taoquan, thanks for the response. unfortunately i view the experiments you have cited as null and void. as the appear to be nothing more than stories rather than investigation. the claims are extraordinary. amazing. but are they repeatable in controlled conditions? well, you know you can claim your 1million dollars from james randi if that's the case... instead of i heard this, or i saw that, what would you do? what conditions would you use? what would you measure? etc etc. no more stories! oh and yes, alternative therapies do provide results. sometimes. that's not in question.
I reckon just use a chiometer! If chi is a feeling then you could maybe use some sort of brain scan. If chi is a universal energy which permeates everything, then it would be too fine to capture. Maybe its both, the brain is one hell of a machine, maybe only it can detect it.
I am wondering, how long will I have to practice meditation for, again, until I experience a manifestation of Peng Ching... that's a rush!
Funny if James Randi started doing the same thing to martial arts.... "Here we have a taiji instructor who claimd to be able to repel people with fa jing, and as a test, we have invited several people..." In walk some big guys, lol.
Possible but not probable since Qi would appear in theoretical physics which unfortunately it doesn't. There are many things we can't detect but their existence is appears in the mathmatics. The Bear.
One I have posted numerous times: http://www.emofree.com/Research/meridianexistence.htm ----------------------------------- This is what I posted in another thread that is closed: Here is studies going on in china right now about Qigong masters: A meeting for the evaluation and demonstration of the action of chi gong on certain bacteria had recently been held, presided over by Feng, Li Da, deputy superintendent of the Navy General Hospital and director of the Immunology Research Division. Test tubes filled respectively with coliform bacillus and dysentery bacteria, golden and white staphylococcus, and virus were handed over one by one to a chi gong master, who held each of the tubes firmly in his hand for a minute to release external energy (chi) at it. A projector displayed the image of each experimental sample on a screen. Under an electronic microscope, the bacteria were shown to be expanding, cracking, and dissolving, being killed by chi gong. From the immunological standpoint, Feng has thus demonstrated that chi energy is an objective reality. Furthermore, she has confirmed that chi gong is effective to a certain degree in treating B-hepatitis. There is also encouraging preliminary evidence of the therapeutic effect of chi gong with respect to the treatment of guinea pigs suffering from ascites ( an accumulation of fluid in the abdomen) caused by cancer. Dr. Feng declared that in mainland China chi gong has now advanced from the prescientific phase to a new epoch in which modern methods are employed in its study. The study of chi gong has been conducive to the development of immunology and other sciences. Another example: A Japanese cancer victim, Ansei Shonin, who had a tumor in the lower part of his head, deeply imbedded in his nasal cavity. Made a special trip from Japan to Beijing's General Hospital of the People's Liberation Army to undergo external chi treatment. A chi gong expert performed twelve days of external chi treatment, and as a result Ansei Shonin's tumor, as large as an egg, shrunk, and his pain was distinctly eased. Why external chi works toward strengthening of the cells and the immune responses of the body in the case of healing a disease, and appears to kill or otherwise interrupt and reverse the growth of cells (or bacteria) in the case of cancer (or the influencing of bacterial cultures) is not known. To the best of our knowledge, it is due to the different intent of the qi gong master. This may be similar to visual-ization or imaging therapy, as applied in Western alternative medical approaches. As part of the therapy, the determination is made in advance whether the patient will visualize growth of healthy or destruction of cancerous cells in his or her own body. This is the Dr. Lida Feng's bio: Dr. Feng Lida Prof. Feng Lida graduated from the Biological Department of California Univ., in 1948. In 1958, she got her Ph.D degree in Medical College of Leningrad Univ.. When she was studying for her Ph.D degree in 1958, Prof.Feng was invited to be a research assistant by Chinese Medical Science Academy. After she returned to China, she was the director in charge of the third research section of the Epidemic Diseases Research Institute. From 1959 to 1960, she was the director of a medical team of CMSA, with the aim to do research on the relationship between contagious diseases and edema. From 1961 to 1966, she was the director of a leading group under the Ministry of Public Health of China to prevent 02 disease. From 1964 to 1968, she was responsible for the study to prevent bacterial and viral meningitis in the Ministry of public Health. Since 1972, she has worked in General Navy Hospital, Beijing, China, as the director of Immunology Research Department, director of China Immunology Research Center, director of Navy Immunology Research Center and the deputy director General Navy Hospital. Meanwhile, she is also a professor of China Science and Technology Univ. and Beijing Traditional Chinese Medicine Univ. Prof. Feng has been invited to be director or adviser to 18 organizations in China. She is the vice president of China Army Medicine institute, vice president of Medical Qigong Research Association and Chinese Medicine of China, Associate director of Chinese Sports Qigong Research institute, etc. She has also been invited to be director of 8 international institutes and academies. She is the vice president of the World Medical Qigong Association, honorary consultant of American Qigong institute, vice president of International Qigong Science Association and honorary director of Hongkong Natural Therapy Research institute, etc.. In the 70s, Prof.Feng improved the immunology research to a higher level of West and Chinese medicine combination and was highly praised by immunologists. In the 80s, Prof.Feng put forward the idea to establish the immunology with Chinese characteristics and realized the idea. Thus, she helped Chinese immunology to improve further. At the same time, she Was engaged in the scientific study of Qigong and helped establish Chinese Qigong study. She has contributed a lot to the improvement of Qigong study. She was the first to study the effects of Qigong on bacteria, viruses and cells, and treated some difficult and complicated diseases and acute diseases with Waiqi. She also put forward the direction for Qigong study to develop into Qigong information study, which is the foundation of the 21st century sciences including human science, life science and universe science. She has published more than 45 research papers on the subject and 15 papers were published abroad. Her works include "The Outline of World Immunology", 'The Relationship between Chinese Medicine and Body Immunology", "Chinese Medical Qigong Study", and "Modern Qigong Study. Prof. Feng has got many rewards. In 1957, she won the Leningrad prize of the Soviet Union for her study of the immunity effects on weak children. In 1994, she was rewarded as an expert with special contribution to medicine and public health by Chinese government. In 1994, the work "Chinese Traditional Recovery Medicine" co-written by prof. Feng and others Won the first prize of "Books of Civilization and Progress". She has been invited to give lectures abroad many times and have got various prizes. Japan is even getting in on some of the "action" Growth Inhibition of Cultured Human Liver Carcinoma Cells by Ki-energy (Life-energy): Scientific Evidence for Ki-effects on Cancer Cells S. Tsuyoshi Ohnishi1,*, Tomoko Ohnishi2, Kozo Nishino3, Yoshinori Tsurusaki4 and Masayoshi Yamaguchi4 1Philadelphia Biomedical Research Institute Radnor, PA 19087, USA, 2Department of Biochemistry and Biophysics, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine Phila, PA 19104, USA, 3School of Nishino Breathing Method Shibuya-ku, Tokyo 150-0002, and 4Graduate School of Nutritional Sciences, University of Shizuoka Yada, Shizuoka 422-8526, Japan ‘Ki-energy’ (life-energy) is believed to increase the immune activity of its practitioners. It has also been shown to cause neuropsychological effects. We undertook this study to obtain objective and scientific evidence as to whether or not a ‘Ki-effect’ could inhibit the growth of cultured cancer cells. Cultured human liver carcinoma cells, HepG2, were used. A Japanese Ki-expert held his fingers toward the cells in culture dishes for 5 or 10 min. After culturing for 24 h, we measured cell numbers, protein concentration per cell, certain mRNA expressions and the synthesis of regucalcin. The results were compared with those for control cells (non-treated cells). We found that the number of cells in the Ki-exposed groups were less than those in the controls by 30.3 and 40.6% with 5 and 10 min Ki-exposure, respectively. The protein content per cell in the Ki-exposed groups (5 and 10 min) was higher than that in the control groups by 38.8 and 62.9%, respectively. These results were statistically significant. Using RT–PCR, we found that the mRNA expression for c-myc, a tumor stimulator gene, was decreased, while that for regucalcin, which suppresses DNA synthesis, was increased. Our molecular biological studies and mathematical model analysis demonstrated that Ki-energy inhibited cancer cell division. The data also indicate that the Ki-effects involve some form of infrared radiation from the human body. This study suggests the possibility that Ki-energy may be beneficial for cancer patients because it suppresses cancer cell growth, and at the same time, it stimulates immune functions of the patients. These are some of the studies going on with measurable results of Qi and/or Ki. Are they proof? Who knows but they are figuring out ways to "test" "masters" of Qi. ---------------------------------- A key patron of the Guo Lin anti-cancer sect is Feng Lida, a politically well connected, Soviet-trained medical doctor who is deputy director of the General Navy Hospital in Beijing. In an interview Dr. Feng, 74, explained that at first she had been skeptical, but that in the late 1970's, when she saw what she felt were amazing recoveries of patients with cancer and infectious diseases, she became intrigued by qigong. Dr. Feng invited some prominent qigong masters to conduct experiments in which they used their hands to direct qi forces at test tubes of bacteria. They were able to raise and lower the bacterial levels at will, she said, pulling out chart-laden publications as evidence. Then the masters tried to alter the growth of cancer cells, she said, and although the effects were weaker and took more time, they, too, were detectable. "These experiments told us that it is really science," Dr. Feng said in her Beijing office, next to photographs of her shaking hands with President Jiang, the legislative leader Li Peng and the late paramount leader Deng Xiaoping. "Qigong is a Chinese treasure." http://www.rickross.com/reference/cs/cs17.html http://www.healthyfoundations.com/guolin_article.html http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2006.12.851 ------------------------- Stroke and Mortality Rates decreased with Qigong practice Dr. Sancier reviewed a 30-year follow-up study on hypertensive patients who were divided into a Qigong group and a control group. All patients had been given drug therapy to control blood pressure. The experimental group also practiced Qigong. The mortality rate in the Qigong group was nearly half of the group who did not practice Qigong. The incidence of stroke as well as death due to stroke was half for those who practiced Qigong. In other words, people who did not practice Qigong suffered a stroke or died from stroke at a rate twice that of those who practiced Qigong. "Researchers also reported that over the 20-year period, blood pressure of the Qigong group stabilized, whereas that of the control group increased. Remarkably, during this period the drug dosage for the Qigong group could be decreased and for 30% of the patients, could be eliminated. However, the drug dosage for the control group had to be increased." http://www.learningstrategies.com/Qigong/Study1.asp --------- From Wiki: Yan Xin (嚴新), a doctor of both Western and Chinese medicine as well as founder of the relatively popular Yan Xin Qigong school, suggests that in order for qigong to be accepted by the modern world it must pass the test of scientific study. Without such studies, Yan maintains, qigong will be dismissed as "superstition" (see "Criticism of Qigong" chapter below). In the mid-1980s he and others began systematic study of qigong in some research institutions in China and U.S. More than 20 papers [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] have been published. Check out the papers cited there, here is an abstract: External Qi of Yan Xin Qigong differentially regulates the Akt and extracellular signal-regulated kinase pathways and is cytotoxic to cancer cells but not to normal cells Xin Yana, b, , , Hua Shenb, Hongjian Jiangc, Chengsheng Zhangd, Dan Hud, Jun Wangb and Xinqi Wue aInstitute of Chongqing Traditional Chinese Medicine, Chongqing, PR China bNew Medical Science Research Institute, New York, NY 10107, USA cMassachusetts General Hospital, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA 02114, USA dDana-Farber Cancer Institute, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA 02115, USA eChildren's Hospital, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA 02115, USA Received 14 February 2006; revised 21 May 2006; accepted 2 June 2006. Available online 27 June 2006. Abstract Long-term clinical observations and ongoing studies have shown significant antitumor effect of external Qi of Yan Xin Qigong which originated from traditional Chinese medicine. In order to understand the molecular and cellular mechanisms underlying the antitumor effect of external Qi of Yan Xin Qigong, we have examined its cytotoxic effect on BxPC3 pancreatic cancer cells and its effect on the Akt and extracellular signal-regulated kinase pathways. We found that external Qi of Yan Xin Qigong dramatically inhibited basal phosphorylation levels of Akt and extracellular signal-regulated kinases, epidermal growth factor-mediated phosphorylation of extracellular signal-regulated kinases, and phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase activity. External Qi of Yan Xin Qigong also inhibited constitutive and inducible activities of nuclear factor-kappa B, a target of the Akt and epidermal growth factor receptor pathways. Furthermore, a single 5 min exposure of BxPC3 cells to external Qi of Yan Xin Qigong induced apoptosis, accompanied by a dramatic increase of the sub-G1 cell population, DNA fragmentation, and cleavage of caspases 3, 8 and 9, and poly(ADP-ribose) polymerase. Prolonged treatment with external Qi of Yan Xin Qigong caused rapid lysis of BxPC3 cells. In contrast, treatment of fibroblasts with external Qi of Yan Xin Qigong induced transient activation of extracellular signal-regulated kinases and Akt, and caused no cytotoxic effect. These findings suggest that external Qi of Yan Xin Qigong may differentially regulate these survival pathways in cancer versus normal cells and exert cytotoxic effects preferentially on cancer cells, and that it could potentially be a valuable approach for therapy of pancreatic carcinomas. So Harvard Medical school is having interest in studies as well. I could go on but I think some of what is cited is enough for some to mull over. Just dig a bit, if you all want your proof, look for it. I don't need anymore proof, I know the "burden of proof is one me" but that is only if I need to prove it to anyone. If you want the information you can do the footwork now. I feel I have given enough info to get you started on your search. Greetings Tpyeon, I don't mean to sound rude, but I don't really care to set up experiments for it. That is for the scientists, I am not one, I need no further proof of what I do or feel. Do I hope they find some proof or explanation? Eh, Honestly I don't know, I can fully admit that knowing there is something there, just out of reach does have a personal appeal to me. I remember a quote once said to me: "That which has been sucessfully defined, has been sucessfully killed." (can't remember from whom.) I applaud the people setting up the experiments and wanting to learn the "how" behind it all. This is good and well and I hope they keep going (in some ways) but for me it is no longer an issue. For people that need tangible proof all you have to do is seek it out. You, PB, CK, the scientists of the world have your methods that work for you. I have mine, plain and simple. I can only provide you with information that maybe difficult to come by, or you may not have seen before. With all the studies getting done, you may not always come across them. I hope I have at least done this, for finding the rest is up to you. Thanks for your input
Well that's not very scientific is it? James Randi, a magician with $1,000,000 to lose get's to arbitrarily decide what constitutes scientific proof. Blimey. I would like to see more work done on the question of what Qi might be in the human body, particularly the meridian system. The work done correlating acupuncture points with areas of different surface conductivity of the skin could probably be built on. I don't have anything like the technical knowledge to know how to design such a study but I reckon looking at different electrical properties of tissue and seeing if there were correlations with the meridian system would be interesting.
Wow TQ you were posting that just as I was writing that stuff about electrical conductivity. Spooky eh? I'm going to a do study investigating mental synchronicity of web forum users
The Bacteria studies are nonsense and took five minutes searching to find rebuttals of them on the net because of bad methodology. Dr. Feng's bio is puzzling at best, in the height of the cold war she studied in the US then Soviet Union then home to China to work in a Navy Hospital. I think we can guess her early occupation. Obviously an interesting person, dinner conversation certainly wouldn't be dull. The one quoted above about would have been a perfect study but for one problem. They didn't have a group doing fake qigong and the participants doctors didn't know who were getting what treatment. A missed opportunity there I think. The Bear.
hi taoquan, thanks for your involvement, and i didn't find your statement regarding your disintrest in experimentation rude at all. If you are happy just feeling things, then of course that is your right. but aren't you just plain curious about if things really are the case or not? as a martial artist you learn methods and test them. people would think you were crazy if you had this killer (killer is slang for really good, not for killing!) move that you had trained for years but had never tested! i would say this is not about being a scientist; it's about looking for robust ideas and tossing aside the muck. this is not limited to just science. again, we use the word science because it has the best methodologies for investigation. (let's please not argue again about how various people/institutions use/misuse them) definitions/tangible proof/investigation.... it's how our whole society has moved out of the dark ages. it gives no one the right to say "this is how it is and if you say otherwise you will be burnt alive". it gives everyone the right to say "why" and "how". when people start to avoid the why and how questions, or when people pay lip service to scientific methods to gain some status to their opinions... it is suspicious to say the least. But anyway; it's actually been an interesting thread. generally civil, with all sides looking at things and open to discussion.
It's worth thinking about what you're saying there. How do we test killer moves, except by killing someone?
um, i didn't mean the death touch or anything. nor actually killing anyone. just slang like! killer = really good
PB, You are indeed right, I never mentioned that any of these were perfect or w/o holes. What I wanted to point out is there is something there and it is measurable. They are finding more and more ways to discount charlatans, but also more and more ways to study Qi scientifically. You made no comment on the other articles, even the ones done with Harvard is there a reason you picked the "grayest" of the studies? There are just as many bad studies as there are good, currently Dr. Feng is still being commissioned by the chinese gov't (as of this last year at least) to study Qigong in lab settings. I am not sure how you get that much more "official" than having a Communist gov't study something "esoteric and mystical". I agree I think that this has been a pretty civil thread. The thing with Qigong practices is you do test them in day to day life, just as you do with regular exercise. Just as you may test your footwork of MA in a busy street or mall, test your balance etc. As MA I would hope that with daily practice we are getting our anecdotal evidence that what we are doing defends ourselves (through sparring etc.) We don't need others to tell us this is so by measuring PSI of a punch/kick, or checking the physics of said tech. We have anecdotal evidence by sparring and training and putting our arts to the true field test. Same with Qigong, here is some of my own personal anecdotal evidence of Qigong practice: - After 3 years of daily practice I have gotten sick only once for 2 days. - Even though I am a full time student (15+ hours of credits per 15 weeks) work part time (15+ hours per week) Train in Qigong and MA daily, Weekly sessions of MA, Run the schools MA club, still have time for family. I don't exhibit any of the stress or frustration that fellow students exp. able to remain calm and relaxed. I actually attribute this to the breathing exercises and being aware of when it changes to indicate a stressful situation. I also am able to maintain a state of peace and calmness even in stressful situations. -Even though I don't do cardio workouts I still have better stamina and endurance than "lay people" and can hold my own against people who do cardio regularly. -My own wife and family members continually comment on my increasing health and vitality. -My Western MD mentions that during physicals I really don't need to come but once every 4-5 years, instead of my yearly physical. B/c I am in such good health and he is actually open to Qigong when he asked what I was doing to maintain my health. -The only thing I add to my daily routine MA wise is 3 rounds of TCC (Though I will be starting some bagua soon ) Did you or anyone else notice if I mentioned moving things with my mind? Levitating? Teleporting? No, plain and simple as I mentioned before, are these things above anything that another exercise could NOT provide? No, any exercise provides these, I just like Qigong b/c of the low impact and it's versatility to do anywhere (I mean you can do standing Qigong literally anywhere ) When you are getting into the "mystical powers" of Qigong, you are not really doing Qigong anymore, you have evolved to a level of Shengong or spiritual training. This is a higher level of training that most Monks do, Qigong is mostly working with the physical body and (if you wish to believe so) the energetic body or Qi. Anyone claiming any miraculous powers, is more than likely a fraud, or they have to have done some serious Shengong training (I mean daily 6-8 hour meditations and exercises like monks do) for many years. Qigong has always been misrepresented as the art that cultivates these amazing powers, when that is not really true (both imo and my own studies). Qigong is pretty much akin to slow aerobics with visualizations, plain and simple. I agree, though I must say that science seems a bit more concerned "how" something works rather than "why" something works. As they are different concepts, many think if you have the how, then you inherently have the why, this is not the case. I agree, in fact in Shamanism one of the most fundamental questions is "Why" during your training you have to analyze: -Why does this work/not work -why do you train -Why do you feel this -Why is such and such happening -etc. You eventually get to points where you are questioning everything you believe or have believed and putting it to the ultimate "acid test" if you will. This may not be done based on what science considers "scientific bases/ideas" but it is done much the same way. This is why if a teacher cannot explain why something is happening (phyiscally/metaphysically) and has an "air of mystery about him/her" then they have not asked "Why" I know it is a bit of stretch for some to think about, but in reality some of these arts are not so different from science. They still do (or should) ask the fundamental questions as posted above and not blindly accept what others say. My teacher questions my training methods (even though he has given them to me) beliefs about the training methods constantly, making me reevaluate my own findings and ideas. He will usually ask what if this were different etc. He has never had his students follow him blindly w/o questioning what they are doing. Well anyways, I suppose let the flaming begin I am used to it.
