here is some nice experimentation

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by tpyeon, Nov 18, 2007.

  1. tpyeon

    tpyeon Valued Member

    kudos to the guy actually going on the show, knowing full well he was going to be tested.

    so now all i have to do is make qi/psychic attack proof vests out of polystyrene. quids in winner!

    [ame=""]James Randi exposes James Hydrick - YouTube[/ame]
  2. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Why is this posted in the TCC forum?????
  3. tpyeon

    tpyeon Valued Member

    because, in a previous thread, i talked about the need for experimentation and evidence when it comes to making claims. for everything. in this instance it was to do with the endless and boring arguements about qi.

    and here is a fella who had been taught special powers, and actually had a go at being observed and tested by skeptics. a pretty good step.

    when he ran into problems he started making excuses, but still, i bet he got thinking about what it is he actually was doing.

    this is what we need more of.
  4. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    *sighs* as well.

    As Taoquan asked previously...why is it posted here?

    :topic: :Aegis: :saz:
  5. tpyeon

    tpyeon Valued Member

    for the reason you quoted in your post.

    is it so tiresome to see people trying to prove disprove things instead of typing?

    this is the tjq forum. a contentious issue is that of qi as a unmeasurable power. i proposed that people should have a go at proving what they believe. no one has yet.

    so here we have a nice example of a super natural power ascribed to martial arts practice.

    tested with critical appraisal.

    is it that hard to see it's relevance to this forum?

    sighs indeed.
  6. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    Try posting it in the Kung Fu forum and see what you get.

    It is hard enough to discuss IMA and TaiJiQuan here without it descending into a religious/none such thing as Qi arguement every time....we don't need more nefarious junk to waste time with.
  7. fatb0y

    fatb0y Valued Member


    We are all much more alike than different and some people use this information to manipulate our emotions in various ways and make us believe all kinds of crap - unfortunately. What has it got to do with taiji - I sense that you already know the answer to that.
  8. tpyeon

    tpyeon Valued Member

    nefarious junk?! charming.

    this is not a post of a master in a demonstration making his students dance and fall with his qi power and then an invitation to mock and thus incite a tit for tat thread.

    it is a post showing clearly that some people are willing to be tested for the claims they make. which is better than most.

    why would i post in the kung fu section? they have far viewer threads degenerating into qi/religion/whatever nonsense.

    if you aren't interested, don't comment. easy. same as what i do.

    however; it is a relevent topic. how could you say otherwise? qi in taiji not relevent?

    and we should all welcome open, reasonable critical debate.

    i'm not interested in boring i said/she said threads. i am interested in tjq and proving/disproving things there.
  9. tpyeon

    tpyeon Valued Member

    nice derren brown clip. have you read his book? nice reading, clearly explains lots of the stuff in his shows in more detail.

    the world needs more people like derren, richard dawkins, ben goldacre, james randi, etc.....
  10. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Sorry tpyeon,

    Qi is NOT, NOT, NOT exclusive to TCC! I know Hsing I practitioners and bagua people that use it, or kung fu practitioners that use the term, aikido, karatedo, heck almost any asian MA practitioner has heard it or used the term. Even Chinese, japanese and korean medicine use the term. I don't disagree it is relevant to TCC, but you seem to be trying to make it exclusive to TCC when it is not. At the very least this post should be in off-topic discussion and could of easy went to any other forum.

    Just b/c this seems to come up mostly in TCC forums does not mean it "belongs here." The reason it comes up is b/c some people practice that way and that should be okay, who are we to judge someone else's routine or practice methods??? It is threads like these are getting old and boring, yes I understand your point, but more often than not, these threads degenerate into "nefarious rubbish" where people are getting offensive/defensive about beliefs and nothing good even comes out of them. Then what gets me is people complain we don't discuss applications and MA of TCC, but nothing to the effect gets posted. Instead we have these threads that come up.

    I have been staying out of commenting on most threads going in the TCC/IMA forums b/c of this reason and I am a QI PRACTITIONER! This is how drab and run of the mill this has become. This is why I comment on someone posting something that is meant to spark another "Qi debate". I have no issue if someone that practices with Qi has true and honest questions, but opinions about "Does it/not exist" is pretty irrelevant, for even if it is "100% proven/not proven" people will believe what they want anyway.

    We will have to agree to disagree here, who is anyone to take away anyone else's dreams/ideas/beliefs??? Who are "people like these"??? to do that to someone. I will be the first to say if these "qi believers/psychics/paranormal/new agers " (whatever title you choose to label people with) are harming people (phsically/mentally/energetically) they need to be stopped. But not all people are harming people, some people are still enjoying their lives and are happy doing what they are doing. Some have truly found a magnificent and wonderful world in some of the "mystical beliefs", myself included.

    To me, while it is great in many respects, science is not always the only answer and it is hardly infalleable (sp?). How many times have you heard of a scientific study coming out saying one thing than years later another completely contradicting it, then sometime later another coming out supporting the original? Then of course each claim the other did it wrong and there is argument there? It does happen, even amazing and wonderful scientists disagree, I got news for ya, it is human. No big study needed!

    The clip you posted was hardly done in a "scientific enviornment" free from contamination. James randi was rather arrogant and rude towards Hydrick in the clip you posted. I can understand he was someone claiming he could do something that he could not. Though if you watch the clip closely Hydrick had his head pretty far away from both objects he "blew on them" and his lips only part open. At the very least, it was interesting he was able to turn a single phone book page with a breath. This is at least some impressive breath control (imo). Randi in the phone book case only offered one possible explanation for how it was being done and actually never mimicked the original results himself.

    On these forums there are people that practice Qigong and Qi work and TCC with Qi. To my knowledge the ones that do, have not really claimed any of these mystical powers. Most of the time, they also agree that most of what is posted is indeed brainwashing, explainable etc.

    Qigong and Qi work is indeed SCIENTIFICALLY proven! :eek: :eek: :eek:

    To Lower blood pressure
    Relieve stress (by lowering stress hormones)
    Increase mental acuity/focus
    Increase flexibility
    Increase lung capacity
    Balance hormonal function

    just with those things of themselves Qigong does indeed do everything ancient Taoists claim. Even by todays standards working on these physical areas of the body can increase health and longevity. Plain and simple. These things are measurable and correspond with any other exercise.

    So, rant over, bottom line, these threads going in the TCC forum is getting old.
  11. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    So does any aerobic exercise. Go running, swimming or cycling and you will get even more benefit, you'll get fit as well !!!!!!!!!!
    Didn't need a 5000 year old chinese mystic to tell me that one.

    The Bear.
  12. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    My point exactly!
  13. tpyeon

    tpyeon Valued Member

    nothing wrong with people having dreams. certainly not. the people i listed i admire. not because they take joy in crushing peoples dreams. but because they are thorough in their investigations of the world around them.

    they will critically look at claims and evaluate them. but the way in which they do this tends be quite special; they will publish what they have found out, how they did it and why they did it.. they are happy to engage in constructive discourse sharing everything they know.

    the attitude of "if people aren't harming, then lets leave them be" doesn't really hold water for me. the one thing that will move all of us forward to a happier life is the removal of ignorance. that doesn't mean knowing everything, but it does mean knowing what we do and do not know.

    in addition, for all the "leave them be if they are happy" sounding great, it also tends to deginerate evidence based, conventional knowledge. it increases the idea that opinion is just as valid as carefully tested and continually questioned ideas based on evidence.

    science gets things wrong? of course. nothing special there. the point is; scientists actively look to get things wrong. if more evidence comes up that supports modifying an idea then so be it. if a new theory gets devised the first thing scientists do is tear it apart. this is good. compare this with not only qi related theories, but alternative medicine and the like.

    Of course it is relevent to this forum in particular. yes, i know qi/chi/ki/life force is common to many different arts outside of tjq. but the idea of qi plays such an important role in tjq. surely we don't have to debate that?

    the clip wasn't an example of the best run investigation. but it was an example of some people trying to figure things out.

    ok, qi is scientifically proven? that's great; could you explain to me how you came to this conclusion?
  14. tpyeon

    tpyeon Valued Member

    oops, sorry. i miss read your post. you say qi gong work and qi work.
  15. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    This stuff is useful for people who are ill, i.e to regain health, these same people would do more harm to themselves with aerobic exercise, if not kill themselves all together, e.g. severe asthmatic, emphysema sufferer, heart problems, etc. The thing about qi-gong is that it can have these positive effects without putting undue stress on the various systems of the body.
  16. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Prove it.

    The Bear.
  17. tpyeon

    tpyeon Valued Member

    hi inthespirit,

    i agree that the types of exercise Polar Bear mentioned wouldn't be best for the seriously ill and infirm.

    however, to immediately prescribe qigong seems a bit of a jump. why have we made that jump? is it because the qi gong we are thinking of is a relatively light work out that wouldn't damage the person further?

    so why not just say moderate, well planned exercise? or do you beleive that the inclusion of qi instruction during exercise would speed up recovery? if so, for what reasons?
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2007
  18. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Its already proved and widely used in hospitals alongside more western type traditional treatment in China and very similar techniques like qi-going are used in hospitals in Russia. Don't believe me, get out of Glasgow and travel around Asia for a bit, specifically checking out the hospitals and health qi-gong schools. Alternatively, find a good health qi-gong school and speak to their formerly ill students. The Internet is no substitute. ;)

    Or if you want, why dont you get some seriously ill people and get them to do a triathlon, then note the results. :p

    Hey Tpyeon,

    I'm not prescribing anything. Exercise and qi-gong (there are thousand of types, I can only talk about those I am familiar with) are very different. One is preatty much mindless running/cycling/swimming around which puts stress for example on the cardiovascular system and "exercises" it, as a result the system adapts and functions more efficiently. Qi-gong, is mindfulness, relaxation, control of tension in the body and mind, posture, breathing, emotions, etc, etc. Gaining control over the effects of stress, allows one to control it, in turn allowing the body to function better and more efficiently, resulting in better healing and recovery. Basically good qi-gong should directly address "stress" and its effects which is a big obstacle to recovery and to good health. Sports exercise addresses this too, but not to such a degree and more indirectly, but also puts stress on the various systems of the body such as the cardiovascular and immune system.

    Why "qi"? I dont really know nor care what anyone else think "qi" is, to me its just a feeling (more or less). In order to get this feeling, one needs to be quite relaxed, in order to increase this feeling and play with it, one needs to increase the level of relaxation. As already mentioned, relaxation is dependent on control of tension in the body and mind, posture, breathing, emotions, etc, etc. To me, the connection between "qi", stress and relaxation is quite obvious, working on qi, will affect the others. I guess you could say the feeling of "qi" is like a compass for practice.
  19. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Got any clinical studies in peer reviewed journals?
    Serious scientific studies, there is no substitute ;)

    The Bear.
  20. tpyeon

    tpyeon Valued Member

    hi inthespirit,

    thanks for the reply.

    i think what polar bear is getting at is that although qigong exercises work, they work because they are exercise. so sure, you will get positive results when you do them. i'm sure he doesn't have a problem with ill people getting better because they did exercise either.

    the right exercise for the right condition is what's needed.

    after all, it could be equally said; only do qigong for running a marathon, see what it gets you!

    also, what we need here is a comparative study right? similar ones have been done for acupuncture recently. they had a real acupuncturist administering real acupuncture, a sham acupuncturist administiring sham acupunture and a group getting nothing. the shame group and real group did miles better than the control group. but there was only a very small difference between real and sham groups. interesting? of course i wouldn't blame you if you didn't beleive me.

    though you can't access it for free...

    qi as a feeling. seems ok. it's good shorthand isn't it? damn better than; whole body relaxation, linked to breath, posture, mental and emotional balance type thing....

    all of the above seem like excellent things for anyone regardless of illness or not!

    but unfortunately most people don't view qi as such. and in this thread is dedicated to those others

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