In Hapkido, there are not a lot of 10th dan ranked practitioners in the world. It would be very interesting (to me anyway) to make a thread about these people who are guiding and shaping the art the we love and practice. Here's what I think would be nice: (1)Name, rank (10 dan only please) and organization (2)Link (or written) biography of this person and their background (3)Any personal experiences you have had with this personal (4)Any other links for more information/ any other thoughts or ideas Here's my example: (1) GM In Sun Seo, 10th dan, Han Min Jok Hapkido Association (http://www.kidohae.com/index.htm) (2) Biography http://www.kidohae.com/2-2GMProfile1.html (3)I was fortunate enough to be able to attend a 2 day seminar with this amazing man. I wrote up a review in my journal, see entry #48 . In my “Photo Gallery”, there are some pictures of GM In Sun Seo in action from that seminar (4)GM In Sun Seo is an amazingly smooth practitioner and his seminar was awesome. He is very personable and made a point to get around and work with everyone. He made a point even during breaks and lunch to mingle and greet everyone. My impression was that he is not only a top level Hapkido practitioner, but also a very nice, kind and humble man. Let's here from other people who know of, or better yet, have had experiences with the 10th dan practitioners in Hapkido.
Greetings, I never met a 10th Dan in KMA, as far as I know Trad Korean Arts end at 9th Dan. 1st to 3rd dan are assistant Instr. ranks 4th & 5th Master 6th & 7th Master Instr. 8th & 9th Grand Master which is very new in KMA and not used until maybe the last 10 years. Some Korean founders have the title of Doju which has no rank asociated with it. I know quite a few 9th dans it's not always what it's cracked up to be in the sense that most KMA curriculums end at 4th dan some 5th, So in the simple technical sense they don't know that much more than a 4th, 5th dan. With that being said they do ussually have alot more refinement of thier skills and expirience, which to me means so much! Many of the higher dan ranks like 7th, 8th, 9th are somewhat inactive as instrs. also by that time, they're well into middle age. In Trad HKD it takes quite a while to get to 5, 6, 7th, dan which is considered quite a high rank, most never get to 8th or 9th and it's usually political for thier contribution to the system or appointed by some association. Remember after 4th, 5th dan the rest is mainly honorary for time in the system, teaching etc. People who start thier own system in KMA are usually appointed to 9th dan or founder if accepted by some authorizing body, or are just self appointments. For example my last formal test was at 4th dan, the rest was done by my master's evaluation at his discression. My first Master was a 6th for over 10 years and a 7th for 14 years now. These trad master feel to get a higher rank basically means thier retired and inactive as Instr.
1. GM Kwang Sik Myung, 10th Dan, World HapKiDo Federation 2. Biography www.koreanhapkido.com/hapkido.htm 3. I was privileged and honored to meet and train with GM Myung at a seminar on April 26th of this year. 4. My experience with GM Myung was similar to Thomas' experience in that he was very friendly and walked around instructing and talking to everyone. After the seminar there was a potluck where everyone went and ate and talked with him, I could not make it but hopefully next year I will. My main school is run by a family whom are some of his longtime students so I am very fortunate to be able to attend a yearly seminar by GM Myung. I feel very lucky to have this training available to me at such an early time in my training. Also, I noticed that all of the blackbelts, and colored belts, shared his positive, patient, and kind attitude.
American HKD, 10th dan is something that is used in TKMA. I've actually read the bio before of the GM that Thomas speaks of. In Sun Seo is also the brother of In Hyuk Suh who is the founder and 10th Dan of Kuk Sool Won (we only use one 10th dan). Their younger brother, In Joo Suh, is the Chiefmaster (9th Dan) as appointed by In Hyuk Suh. I'm fairly certian that I've heard of 10th Dans in Tae Kwon Do as well. I could be wrong about the TKD thing, but I do know that GM In Sun Seo is a 10th dan HKD, and of course the GM of my style, Kuk Sool Won. Just thought I'd include my 2 cents.
Greetings I'm aware of these two 10th dans and most Masters in the HKD world thought GM Myungs 10th dan was a strange and unusual, not because he not a great master but because it's not customary. As far as I know Myung was promoted by Ji Han Jae to 9th dan as the highest possible rank. Ji Han Jae can promote to 9th dan, but he holds no rank of 10th dan only of Doju (founder). Myung's own Federation gave him a 10th Dan which again is not a promotion by one's Master and is very unsual in KMA. Choi Yong Sul highest promotion was a 9th dan as well. These are rare exceptions to the rule and some associations wanting to honor thier leaders by the use of 10th dan rank, because there was no where for them to go. The same is probably true with GM Seo, his 10th dan is from what master's appoinment, the bio doesn't say? You'll all get my drift with the 10th dan thing honorary and unusual beyond the norm in KMA.
I put the information here that I have researched and I have not heard of the circumstances of GM Myung's 10th Dan but I will not personally disrespect him in any way, not that I would ever want too. I find it odd that it is being questioned as I have seen articles about him in MA magazines(not only for HapKiDo) and his history in HapKiDo is lifelong so I feel that he definitely is a legitimate GM. I must say that I am a bit disappointed at the eagerness to debate the legitimacy of GM's that are reputable. I am very proud to be able to trace my lineage through GM Myung and to one day have a blackbelt through the World HapKiDo Federation. I apologize Thomas for the sidetracking of this excellent thread and I won't add any more to it but I feel that I had to say something in a respectful manner in response to the comments regarding GM Myung.
It is important to know the significance of Dan ranks Korean martial arts. 1. Up to 7th Dan, Dans are awarded to you by the organization for your skill and ability. 2. After 7th Dan, your students effectively elect you for higher Dan ranks and are in that sense honorary. As a cultural thing, students find it hard to have the same rank as their seniors, so they ask that their seniors take a higher rank than they. This is why a 2nd Dan rank from the 60's is in some senses "worth" a lot more than a 7th Dan from the 90's. Of course, this can lead to some abuse as sometimes the number of students and dojangs has been taken to be the only requisite measure of worth by many HKD organizations. 3. 10th Dan and Doju are new concepts to the whole thing. In Korean culture, it is hard to accept that people can give themselves these titles (if that makes any sense)...again perhaps something someone could accept from their students. "Dojunim" is actually a modern term (there is no Korean word or concept...it is two chinese characters chosen for their combined meaning) that was coined I think by Ji Han Jae. Austin
Greetings all, This thread was not started to be any sort of negative thread. Its purpose was for people to discuss the heads of the various Hapkido organizations. I was looking for information on people like GM In Sun Seo, GM Myung Jae-nam, GM Myung Kwang-sik, GM Hwang In-shik, GM Kim Jin Pal, GM Oh Se-lim, GM S.K. Kim, and anyone else who is recognized as a 10th dan. I mention these because a quick web seach will turn up this information. I thought it would be nice to have people discuss their own personal experiences. By the way: Here's a good read on The rank structure of Hapkido (by Dr. Scott Shaw) http://www.scottshaw.com/hapkidorank.html I am sorry, but I was a bit confused because I have seen GM Ji Han Jae listed in some places as 10th dan. Below is what a quick search turned up, especially the last link which shows an "instructor seminar" certificate signed by Ji Han Jae, 10th dan. Any insight on why the confusion would be appreciated.
Greetings, Unfortunatly you can't believe everything because someone wrote it. I see the confusion caused by the Loosely thrown around term 10th dan in KMA. Doju Ji is Founder which has no rank at all, he is above any rank and in fact has no rank. Many call him 10th dan however this is a mistake on thier part. Who could promote one to 10 dan? Only an 11th Dan of course and there is no such rank! Maybe one's self appointment to 10th dan is another possibility. GM Myung took the title by a popular agreement of his board. Here in lies the modern day problem with these titles and ranks. 1. GM Myungs board is not made up of 11th dans but a select few of his senior students or peers. For example how can several 6,7,8, dans promote anyone to 10th it's completley above thier authority besides being completely unheard of. 2. Many in the know would also readily agree that the term Grand Master was never used by trad KMA before a few years ago. This hype if you will came from the west and thier quest for higher and more prestigious ranks and titles. Egos and marketing for business purposes. A 10th dan is simply not part of KMA tradition. Of course in our era of anything goes I just promoted myself to 12th Dan Supreme GM of Super American Hapkido.
Apologize Thomas, I would again like to apologize but I am very angry and offended that someone (for whom I had respected) questions the authenticity of a legitimate GM who only wishes to continue his lifelong passion of training in HapKiDo. I try to not be negative sir, and I promise to be more positive from now on. Please except my apology.
Agreed, expect the term doju (founder) has been around in regards to HKD for many years the KHF clearly refers to Choi Young Sul 1st founder, and Ji Han Jae 2nd founder.
Greetings Your completely missing the point here. We are talking about the term 10th dan in a trad. sense, not the legitimacy of any master's quailifications or skill.
Greetings ........Greetings all, This thread was not started to be any sort of negative thread. Its purpose was for people to discuss the heads of the various Hapkido organizations. I was looking for information on people like GM In Sun Seo, GM Myung Jae-nam, GM Myung Kwang-sik, GM Hwang In-shik, GM Kim Jin Pal, GM Oh Se-lim, GM S.K. Kim, and anyone else who is recognized as a 10th dan. I mention these because a quick web seach will turn up this information. I thought it would be nice to have people discuss their own personal experiences......... GreetinI agree it would be a good topic I just couldn't figure out who was a 10th Dan? What 11th Dan promote the above Masters? I personally know GM Oh Se Lim and had dinner with him on 2 occasions he's a 9th Dan the highest rank issued by the KHF. The only 2 people that are his seniors are Choi Young Sul & Ji Han Jae. Maybe times are changing and many leaders want to be 10th dans now, so be it, but you must realize this is a new phenomenon Thomas this is not directed to you per se, but in general there's so much ignorance in HKD when I see it I have to say something, I didn't mean to ruin your thread.
HUH??! Isn't In Sun Seo In Hyuk Suh's (KSW GM) Brother?!?!? Odd. In our sleepy city of Calgary, we have 3 Hapkido GMs. There's the brother Ki.C. Yoon, and B.O.Yoon, and then my own Grandmaster, Hyun Soo Park. Unfortunately, I know little of their backgrounds. I think it would be fascinating to have someone put together a "family tree" of the HKD GMs. I'm sure there's very few degrees of separation among them.
Sorry Stuart... The term "doju" has not been around for many years as you say. It was a very recent creation...in fact it came after 10th Dan was given as a title and became common use particularly for those who were the head of their own organizations (it has *no* bearing on their original rank with the KHF...you misunderstand its usage). You seem to forget that anything above 7th Dan is awarded effectively by the students of the organization, and not because of 11th Dan's or higher, or because they necessarily "want" it. I'm 90% sure that GM Ji coined the phrase when he started the Sin Moo branch, then of course, everyone else (Lee Joo Bang, Seo In Sun, etc.) started using it too. You can of course show me that I'm wrong... So when you start casting aspersions to others about the modern-day irrelevance of dan ranks, you need not go further than the dan ranks of say people like Jurg Ziegler, who has 9th Dan rank under Sin Moo HKD. Austin
Daniel Swan wrote: > I think it would be fascinating to have someone put together a "family tree" of the > HKD GMs. I'm sure there's very few degrees of separation among them. There used to be such a tree, but then from what I understand, people started abusing it by claiming lineages that did not exist or that were not entirely true. Austin
If you really want to get down and dirty..In traditional Korean martial culture there was no such thing as Dahn,Gup,Doju..whatever. All these things are "imports" and recent ones at that. I personally find it funny(in an ironic way) to have a phenominal MAist like Young Sool Choi who founded an art with no rank....then gave rank out...then many years later people are arguing about whose rank is "legit" and whose isn't. I'd be willing to bet he'd just shake his head and say "You all are missing the point." I really believe that rank is a moot point nowadays,anyway. One's experience and technique is really only visible in one place..on the mat.
Trad Korean MA promtions were only given directly by ones teacher who was a senior or the founder, head master, instr. etc. Doju Choi needed no board to promote anyone, Ji Han Jae needs no board, nor do I. I do need an assoc. for my students if they are to be recognized by a large governing body such as any particular Assoc,, KHF, WHF, CH, etc.
Geez, It's really getting ridiculous in this place. Here all Thomas wanted to do was have a nice discussion about people's experiences with training with 10th dan's and what do we get YET ANOTHER TOPIC WHERE IT TURNS INTO ANOTHER FLAME WAR. :bang: :bang: :bang: MAP is becoming like all the rest of the martial art forums on the net. Nothing but bickering. austinso I believe is referring to the tree that was formerly at hapkido-info.net. It was a very nice tree. Such a shame that political BS yet again rears it's ugly head. http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/hapkido_info.com.html On topic: I have yet to train with a 10th dan but hopefully one day I can go to one of In Sun Seo's seminars when he visits the U.S.
Although there may be some minor contention and disagreement, I don't see that anyone is being disrepespectful or abusive. Personally, I am finding it all very informative.
