Groundfighting

Now, some joke about not getting bravo's about his package is eluding me at the moment...but it's in there somewhere...

 

I'm probably what you would call a TMAer, and yes I do acknowledge that groundfighting is an important thing to learn. But, from the fights that I've seen the things that seem to be the most important are short range striking, clinching and stand up grappling (replace with trapping if you know how ). I only have seen one fight go to the ground and that was with the other guy pounding on his face from a bent over, lowered stance position. The victor of all of the fights was the guy who hit first basically.

Because of the tough guy, rock music, muscle man, professional wrestling, aggressive, violent, testosterone image that MMA and to a lesser extent BJJ has it would in my mind at least seem more attractive to a potential street thug than the mild mannered, tea drinking, peaceful, graceful, labotomized, spiritual, ethical, disiplined and robed old chinese guy that other types of MA training usually market themselves as.

Like you not going to see some thug say "You have offended my family, and you have offended the shaolin temple" then bow and punch you in the face, bow and then take your wallet then commit Seppuku from the guilt of violating his ethical code taught to him by his McSensei.

But then again he could be a Cobra Kai thug.

So my interest in groundfighting for SD will probably increase as MMA & BJJ becomes more popular. Apparently there's a new BJJ & Judo club I can easily get too, I've been told those two go well together and the standup grappling of the Judo will shut my mouth for the time being.

My current plan is a combining Boxing, WC and Judo for SD.

 

I don't know about anywhere else but in the UK people who listen to rock music really aren't associated with violence and aggression anymore. We're actually the ones who get started on most often.

 

I wouldn't be to sure about that, perhaps that is the way it is seen among yourselves, but on the whole I would suspect it's much like the US where the music itself is seen as aggressive (and often is) and the listener therefore is guilty by association.

That said, I am in the US, so what do I know...

 

I think that one of the most important elements that is ignored in damne near evberything I see is clinching. To me this is the range where 80-90% of fights go throught at some point and in this range grappling skills can really be decisive.

When I had a morning spare a while back I went and made a list of every street fight video I could find and noted down what ranges that they included and whether they included weapons and I saw that in at least 80% of those vids there was some form of clinching though not the sort you would neccesarily instantly associate with BJJ or MT.

Anyway, in summary I think that these days clinching is the ignored range when it comes to self defence.

 

The music itself is seen as aggressive but on the whole the days of hell's angels are long behind us and the rockers are the kids who get picked on at school by the kids who listen to r n' b and gangsta rap. We're seen as "weird" or "gay" and get started on accordingly.

 

I think the kick-ass hard muscle heads that are into rock music, bodybuiding & mma in the US differ from the gothic type in the UK (which these days is a minority) but thats another matter .. back to groundfighting .. i've done MT & boxing over the years & would say my standup is good but recently i thought of how many ugly fights end up rolling around on the ground, if that happens i realised i've got nothing, all my hard combos, knees & punishing low kicks amount to nothing, i'm just joe average with no skills, just a bum on the deck fighting like a novice thinking what should i do? fighting like a fag probably getting my ass kicked just fighting on heart, so i've taken up judo, that means my clinching has the sweeps & throws missing from MT & the ground is an area where i can tie joe average thug up, what is joe gonna know about chokes & arm bars? If you haven't got a ground game your screwed if you both fall over, if you want to be able to look after yourself you need at least some basic experience of sparring on the ground

 

Again, being a devil's advocate, here's another question that I think is relevant. If you don't know groundfighting, but neither does your attacker, how are you at a disadvantage? If you're not at a disadvantage, how can you need to know groundfighting?

 

Well if the fight turns into a sort of wrestling match on the ground, you'll know how to move properly to gain superior position and you won't panick.

If your opponent gives you room to get up, BJJ and other submission grappling stules teach you how to get up while remaining in a ready position to fight. Transitioning is important.

 

What are you guys opinions of standup grappling and short range striking ability transfering over into ground fighting. Would you be advantages even only a little bit?

 

well you'll probably reduce your chances at going to the ground, I guess. They might be marginally usefull on the ground but you really need the groundfighting skills.

 

I'm not asking whether or not having groundfighting skill is an advantage. I'm asking if you really NEED it - as in, cannot stand a chance of winning without it - if your opponent doesn't have good groundfighting skills either.

 

Well if your opponent isn't confident he can beat you on the ground wouldn't he want to get up?

 

well not having depends on your physical aptitude versus your opponnents since niether of you are relying on skill. Do you have a chance? Whoever is more physically capable will win.

 

Of course. So you wouldn't be at a disadvantage for not having groundfighting skills, would you?

 

In that particular instance yes. But if he was a larger opponent or something. He'd probably would feel that he could win on the ground, but he still may want to get up since he dosen't really know what to do or take advantage of the fact your on the ground, with strikes.

I don't know, it seems to me if there is groundfighting it's usually ground and pound. At best it would be untrained choking or an untrained headlock.

 

There a lot of guys who are ex-high school wrestlers who start street fights and if you don't know anything on the ground, you will most likely get taken down and dominated on the ground, so yes, you need to learn groundfighting if you want to know how to defend yourself.

Also, if someone attacks you on the street, why would you want to have the edge just standing? What if you hit him a few times and you're winning and he charges you and gets you down? Do you want the fight to just go even because neither of you know anything? I'd prefer to choke him or mount him and punch him.

 

Ok I'm quite new here so first of all hello everyone.

I've noticed BJJ ground fighting since the days of Royce Gracie - gotta be about 10 years ago now, and have thought about it a little bit since then. Might I just add that the thought struck me when watching those old "Anything goes" cage fights, that anything in fact doesn't go - there was no eye gouging, no groin strikes, no elbows and things like that, I don't know what the rules are now but I suspect they're the same. For that reason I'm not sure how realistic it actually is. If one of them gouged the other's eyes I can see them getting disqualified. A lot of techniques from MA if those guys actually did to each other, there'd be no contestants left, they'd all be permanently crippled. Apart from that it looks very very effective. Sorry don't want to start a whole new debate, it's just an observation.

Another thought - I don't see mentioned on here the period of time BETWEEN standing up and being on the ground. If you look a the way a cat has built in reflexes to right itself if it slips on a fence or takes a fall from a wall or something - it's body twists instinctively to enable it to land correctly no matter what the starting position.
By the same token, surely there is training to be had for this transitionary period of about say 1/3 second. Build reactions - if you sense yourself being taken down and you can't avoid it, then try and manouvere so you end up on top, or at least in a less vunerable position at the poit of impact with the ground. What immediately springs to mind are the body shifting theories that already exist in every MA. They must be pushing/pulling you a certain way to get you down - use this against them to reverse it ON THE WAY DOWN. If someone is trying a rugby tackle style thing, body shifting at the right moment will actually enable you to reverse it and land of top of them. Not saying it's easy but it's food for thought I think.
So if you don't train in groundfighting, like me, at least you can do your utmost to stop getting on the ground. Or ending up on top if you do. I think a lot of MA teach joint manipulation, certainly we are taught a fair bit in karate - surely this + common sense will be useful on the ground as well, as it installs a basic knowledge of locking joints/getting out of locks. We are also taught if the both of you are going down, landing on them with a knee or elbow sandwiching them between that and the ground is devastating. That combined with the "landing" training would surely be useful.
I'm not sayig that would work against a skilled groundfighter, but thinking about it a bit in those terms IMO will increase your chances against the usual rugby tackle/wrestling Joe. Perhaps if you were confident in landing manipulation, shall we call it, you might actually go to the ground with him, if he's already takig you down, thereby increasing the force of the impact with the ground. Could be risky though. I don't know whether Judoka are trained like this, perhaps?

Another thought strikes me - surely groundfighting can only be useful against a single attacker? If you're against multiple attackers, surely the ideal thing you need is body shifting and good strong quick striking skills? (boxing comes to mind - or Muay Thai) - if you end up on the ground with one of them the groundfighting skills are no good - why? because you're getting your head kicked in by the others, who are standing. Of course if you've knocked the others out by this time ignore that last sentence.

Anyway think it sense or complete rubbish, those are my thoughts on it.

 

oh dear. prepare to be flamed.