Groundfighting

This isn't necessarily my actual belief, so please don't lynch me. It was just a thought that occurred to me, though Bil Gee has said it before.

Most of us, whether MMA or TMA, acknowledge the importance of learning to fight on the ground. However, much of this evidence is based on the UFC. I'm not going to argue that if you were on the street the lava on the ground or your ability to gouge eyes or just automatically have a weapon or friends available every time you get attacked would stop a groundfighter from beating you. That one's been done to death and if people really want to discuss it there are plenty of other threads for this.

When we first saw or learned about Royce Gracie we were like "what the hell?" It was totally different to what many of us expected from martial arts. To many of us this was a new way of fighting. MMA fighters therefore have to learn groundfighting to avoid being submitted even if they plan on staying upright. Now, imagine if the groundfighting revolution had never occurred. Specialist groundfighters had never entered the UFC. Would people still have felt the need to learn how to grapple?

A large reason for BJJ's UFC success was that it was so alien to people. People weren't used to fighting on the ground and as such they didn't have a clue what to do when they got there. Perhaps this lack of knowledge of groundfighting stems from the fact that most people who aren't specialist groundfighters aren't going to try and take the fight to the ground, so there was no need for most people to learn groundfighting. Just look at judo - despite being a full-contact grappling art, newaza was only added after a ton of defeats from fusen-ryu JJJ practitioners who specialised in taking the fight to the ground.

My question therefore is this: considering how unlikely it is that someone who attacks you will have done BJJ, is groundfighting something you really need to know for real self defence, or is it an esoteric skill only needed against the specialised grapplers encountered in the MMA ring/cage?

 

I'd still consider it an important aspect. Things like escapes from mount and choke defenses would still be of interest as would how to get up should you be knocked down. One of the things that I've noticed is that during MT classes I sometimes find I miss the flexibility afforded by MMA rules (usually when someone is getting the better of me in stand up my best game is lay n pray ). If I'm not doing well trying to strike it out and I think this person doesn't have a ground game that's the best place to take it, pull them out of their element and make them play your game.

 

Sure you can ignore it. But you do so at your own peril. In a day and age where BJJ is rather popular and the whole phenomena of 'ground 'n pound' is not that far off of peoples minds... it's entirely likely that you could get grounded... and pounded.

One only has to watch any number of random clips on the web that show fights going to the ground (and yes before any idiot chimes in that not all fights go to the ground... go back and read... that's not what was stated). Whether the fighters sucked or were skilled there is one constant... the person that got taken down could have done better if he had had anti-takedown skills. The person that let someone mount them could have done better if they knew how to stop the attacker from gaining a dominant position.

Think about it... most of these scraps are not fighters in any pro sense... they are usually highschool or college kids... usually school yard scraps and the like... yet you'll see people that know how to thrown knees on the ground... people who know how to take someone down.

People fighting in parking lots and other places were taking fights to the ground long before the Gracies or the UFC came on the scene. The reason that the UFC and the Gracies rocked everyone is because it turned the status quo on it's head... it put paid to a lot of mystical BS that so many arts wear like badges of valor.

I mean seriously who in their right mind would step in the ring with the likes of Raymond Dekkers.... he was brutal in standup.... but ad a takedown and that all changes... completely. Genki submitted him in seconds. Seconds... for one of the hardest stand up cats to come along in a very long time.

So yeah there are those that think it's not important... let 'em. It's their problem not mine. They're pretty silly to bet on the odds of a fight NOT going to the ground. They get what they settle for.

 

Although I agree with the general thrust of what you're saying, I don't think BJJ is 'rather popular' by any stretch of the imagination. In the UK at least I'd say that the only really popular live grappling style is judo. It's not like you can go into any town and find a BJJ club, but you can find judo, karate and TKD.

I agree. Many martial artists assume that simply having martial arts training of any kind is an automatic advantage over Joe the Average Street Thug and it's simply not the case. There are enough people out there who know how to fight despite not having formal training to justify learning to fight properly.

Putting my devil's advocate hat back on for a second... if taking fights to the ground was a tactic used so often in real life, why is it that arts only seem to take on anti-grappling measures when they have to go up against groundfighters? I know instructors are often far from realistic, but surely if it was that common as a street attack they would have at least come up with some ridiculously futile method of dealing with a shoot rather than just not even considering it?

Good point, but to be fair, Genki Sudo is a professional submission fighter.

 

Perhaps it's different in the UK. In the states it's quite popular. Especially if given that 10 years ago you wouldn't have found it all. Even here in Hong Kong we have 3 different associations for BJJ alone. I don't really expect the UK to be on the cutting edge of martial arts honestly so your mileage with BJJ in terms of popularity may differ.

Agreed. People often make the mistake of thinking that because they train in an MA they're now some hard man. As we always say... people sign up and learn just enough MA to get their ass kicked. In many ways it's true. As I've said many time here at MAP there are any number of people out there in the world who've never done an MA, never had social hour in white pajama's or done a Ninja forward roll that can ring your bell all day long.

Why would they? Many arts are so deluded in their own mysticism or in some esoteric way of doing this or that because that's how the samurai did it back in the day that they could easily gloss it over without a second thought. Who wants to deal with the reality of getting your faced pounded in on the ground when you can expound Chi philosiphy and all sorts of other nonsense?

It's not like they started them on the ground. Sudo still had to get in there and run the risk of getting punched by one of the best punchers in the business. Yet he still took him down and submitted him.

 

BJJ and MMA do definitely seem to be taking off, even if they're not massively popular yet. I've actually come across more MMA than BJJ classes.

We do seem very behind what's going on though. I'll hold my hand up and admit that I knew jack about groundfighting or MMA before I joined MAP. The only people I knew who'd seen the UFC at all used to talk about the old fights with Ken Shamrock et al as if it only happened yesterday, and were only interested in seeing people get battered. To be fair, it's not like MMA is on TV all the time or even well advertised.

 

In the States, wrestling was already fairly popular with large numbers of people involved in high school or college wrestling. Wrestlers pretty much preferred to take it to the ground to get an advantage. However, the one that bjj did add was the submissions that the wrestlers lacked.

I think that you do need some groundfighting skills for self defense. But more important is probably a realistic defense against takedowns and throws.

 

I don't think it is particularly popluar in the US. In Orlando, we have one place for bjj but a ton for tkd, karate, aikido, various kung fu, etc. Likewise, when I travel across the States, I rarely see a place that does bjj, but I find a lot of everything else. In the States, you are probably more likely to run into a judo, jjj, or wrestler with ground skills than bjj.

 

As stated, in the States just about anyone you meet could have wrestled in high school, and BJJ is fairly popular over here. I'd say the possibility of me facing someone who wants to take the fight to the ground may be as high as 50%. Honestly, I'm quite comfortable on the ground, but I train to get back to my feet or at least to a top possition more than playing the "lay and pray" game. Street applicability is a big reason for this paradigm.

OK, so here's something: how do you define "groundfighting"? If I were to teach straight self-defense, there'd be a lot of escapes from the bottom and far less subs, in contrast to coaching someone for MMA or sub wrestling. But in that case are you really "fighting" on the ground or simply extricating yourself from a bad possition? Certainly the escapes can be used in both settings but, say, the defense against a rolling kneebar would probably be a waste of time in the self-defense setting, since only skilled grapplers and groundfighters could pull it off.

As well, "groundfighting" in any sense is not restricted to grappling, in my oppinion. As a matter of fact, in the self-defense setting, strikes and foul tactics might be the order of the day, with an understanding of ground possitioning being used to facilitate these tactics. For instance, you get tackled, so you pull guard and sink your teeth into the guy's ear. He pulls away, allowing you to score a few up-kicks that daze of KO your opponent, allowing you a chance to escape.

So bottom line, yes, groundfighting in some form is necessary, though I would think it would be necessary to modify and/or streamline it to fit a more escape-oriented doctrine than that of mutual combat.

 

Here's the thing over in america:

Lots of big people
+
Middle school (american) football
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Middle school wrestling
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High school (american) football
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High school wrestling
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College wrestling
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College (american) football
+
MMA is hugely popular
=
Lots of people who will probably try to tackle/double leg/judo throw (probably badly)/take you down somehow. Oh yeah, I didn't mention we have a pretty darn big Judo community for all ages. Honestly, in my experience, Judo is the second most popular art behind TKD. I swear every other karate school in my area teaches it, and every other JJJ school, and it seems to be the same everywhere.

The realities of self defense in this case probably favor the aforementioned conclusions of the other posters in America. Mileage may vary.

I also agree the there are plenty of Yobs who will just knock your teeth out the back of your head.

EDIT: Especially in the south. There are more corn-fed high-school wrasslin' footballin' blah blah blah down here then you can shake a stick at.

 

Personally, I consider groundfighting for self-defense a side skill. While I've heard that there are very interesting things about BJJ standup defense, I would never consider training exclusively (unless I was interested in grappling competitions) in an art whose main strategy is going to the ground. I do, however, intend on taking BJJ when I will have a stronger base in KF. Not because I believe it is the best, not because I intend on going into competitions, but because I have the feeling I would enjoy it. Well, not the aspect of rolling around with sweaty men, but more the technical aspect of it.

Something interesting pertaining to the current subject: standing guards have radically changed during the 20th century, thanks to martial arts not counting on the possibility of being tackled/taken down. This old thread on Traditional Boxing has many pictures of boxing guards; I especially like the one on the second post. It is very, very similar to the one I am taught in my Kung Fu class (our rear hand is slightly lower); and it is true that it give much more space to defend against takedown attempts. Boxing did have this, but then grappling was separated from it, gloves were introduced and the guards have adapted for boxing competitions.

While our societies became more reliant on guns, concealable knives and the like for street violence, most martial arts have adapted to competition (be it forms or sparring) within their own system. The part about defending against grappling/groundfighting have been lost in most large and popular martial arts. Which is one of the reasons I particularly enjoy my current MA; because it is a small style that hasn't adapted to competition, and still aknowledge the possibility of someone going for a takedown.

 

Being a little bloke (55kgs) being able to handle myself on the ground is important for self defence as I tend to go down easliy. We practice a lot of ground work and prevention, luckily i get the worst of it against the bigger blokes in order to develop these skills, though going to ground is not a strategy I'd use.

One thing that we don't do is submissions, I don't think there is much point in arm baring someone, what would I do next? We learn them in order to practice defence against them but will get in trouble for trying to arm bar when we are playing the defender. Instead we do alot of striking on the ground, movement for position, defence against pins, and recovering to standing.

I think that ground work is important to learn for self defence as you never know when you may find yourself on the ground with a 110kg samoan sitting on your chest.

 

I think the point would still have been made whether BJJ had been entered in the first UFCs or no. In my experience, whatever the closest range allowed in a particular format or experience (counting streetfighting as a format), that's where the match or fight will eventually go. Even without training in that range, I've seen people tie up and wrestle either standing or on the ground. I think it's a natural instinct to want to establish control. We generally don't feel that need when we're sparring within our schools. Because we know the format and the parameters. Taekwondoka don't feel the need to tie up with other taekwondoka because they know what the match will look like. They already feel in control. Boxers same deal. Etc.

But when you're in a match where you don't know quite what to expect, perhaps the need to feel in control is stronger. So we grab.

In any event, I think the UFC would have pointed out our deficiencies in addressing one another's games, regardless of what those games specifically were. Boxers would've eaten kicks. Taekwondoka would've fallen for hip throws. And judoka would've sucked on a few crosses.

But I'm not limiting this to groundfighting necessarily. I think people are generally better prepared for even the attempt to be taken down. I don't know many martial artists who were clamouring to learn the sprawl prior to UFC. We were all still convinced we'd just drop the dude with a kick or knee.


Stuart

 

Break their arm, get up and walk away.

 

So then I'd have to ask how often do you travel across the states?
Are we to believe that when you travel you spend your time looking up BJJ clubs? Hmmm....

 

Putting aside the popularity of UFC, MMA and BJJ, my take on this is that I can end up on the ground simply by accident. Perhaps I am caught by surprise when someone blind-sides me with no skill but lots of aggression, or perhaps I trip over a stool/bag/foot in a pub when someone takes a swing at me.

The very fact that I can end up on the ground means I ought to have some answers to that situation, even if I don't develop them to a standard that enables me to defeat a ground specialist.

Kind regards,

Declan

 

Consider this a hearty handshake Declan. Well said.

 

Thank you, ap Oweyn.

Declan

 

I don't necessarily agree the Gracie marketing machine comments that 80%-90% of fights wind up on the ground, I have, however, seen enough drunken bar fights, and stupid kid crap that lead me too believe a large enough percentage does wind up on theground that, if you want to be a weel rounded fighter, you will want to at least learn some ground fighting.

If you are more in MA for exercise and fun rather than self defense, maybe not, but if you goal is fighting MMA or self defense, it is in your best interest to learn some grappling skills...

As stated above, ya don't necessarily wind up on the ground because anyone in the fight took it there...you can just fall, trip or whatever...