Ground fighting in the Takamatsuden

Hang on...I do have some ideas why Hatsumi went that route.

 

Hah...yeah they're the reasons I came up with too.

 

I've more likely not seen any effective grappling from Ninjutsu because there isn't any, or at least not in large amounts. Certainly I've never heard anybody to roll with any of those named and come back to the Internet saying "he was crazy skilled". Whereas I've heard of multiple people rolling with Olympic level and Grandmasters in Judo and been told there skills are to be believed.

If you want to talk about context/lenses, then yes, weapons do change things, however it's easier to be exceptionally good at grappling and learn to defend against weapons than to be a shoddy grappler who starts with weapons.

Nobody in ninjutsu IS putting in the time though. So they can't hang with an experienced grappler. I'll conti he this post later after training.

 

The reason people haven't seen it is because they haven't seen it. It isn't on people's radar, so why would anybody outside the arts come see for themselves? You do understand that Hatsumi sensei and other masters of Takamatsuden were highly ranked in Judo as well right? So was Doron for that matter.

Who is a shoddy grappler? It's a cross between annoying and amusing when people who have little or no knowledge or experience in these arts decide to tell those who do about these arts.

There are some people who have been trained to the highest level of mastery in the traditional ryu that make up the Takamatsuden, many who have been training since the 1970s. So how do you figure they haven't put in the time? Let's try not to waste bandwidth with posts based on assumptions and prejudices. If you don't know anything about the ground fighting curriculum in the Takamatsuden, please think twice before you post something that is off topic or another poorly concealed anti-Bujinkan rant. It has been done to death and doesn't add anything to the conversation.

 

You make a reasonable argument, unfortunately it's pretty much negated by the post below it.

PR asserts that if you spend enough time with 'these arts' you will develop skills equivalent to an experienced grappler.

It's clear to any experienced grappler that Hatsumi himself does not have those skills. And the argument that 'you can't tell from video' is foolish. You watch any video of any experienced grappler moving on the ground, judo, BJJ, sambo, submission wrestling, what ever, you can tell they are good regardless of the style.

For all the reasons you can tell Hatsumi doesn't know what he is doing on the ground.

You can say 'these arts teach it' but if no one can demonstrate that then it's clearly not true.

Look, no one goes to a Muay Thai champ to learn grappling. No one goes to Rixen Gracie to learn striking. It's okay not to be an expert in everything.

Not so okay to pretend you are though.

 

Fair enough. Have you gone through the entire Takagi and Shinden Fudo(jutaijutsu) curriculum with any of the Shihan?

 

I find it entirely plausible - indeed likely - that there is a school within the umberella of the Bujinkan that has servicable newaza

I equally find it plausible - indeed likely - that as they do not drill it very often the standard is sub par compared to a specialist discipline.

Once again it is always the same question - "Do you drill this under pressure?"

If the answer is "No" then all the techniques in the world are utterly meaningless.

At a core level a BJJ armbar, a CACC armlock and a Gendai "No Can Do" Ju Jitsu armlock are mechanically the same.......in the same way a boxing jab and a boxercise jab are mechanically the same

 

Have you ran through the whole BJJ curriculum, trained in brazil with Brazilian masters, which is the only place real BJJ is.

You realise how ridiculous that sounds, right?

 

The reason I ask is because some of the chokes require an obviously advanced knowledge of ground fighting to apply. Same can be said of some of the finishes with the tai no kata. A jujutsu school without much curriculum in newaza would not have such techniques. There were some that primarily focused on throws and atemi, but that clearly isn't the case with Takagi.

 

I wouldn't say there was if there wasn't. There is nothing I like more, than to debunk some of the things that are said erroneously about the Takamatsuden.

Nobody would argue that the amount of techniques and their sophistication would equate or bequeath one with fighting skill. Fighting skill has to be earned(unless you are a natural), and no sane person would argue otherwise. As there are some people who have been trained in all of the arts that make up the Takamatsuden, some upwards of 40 years, it would be equally implausible to think that they would not have trained deeply in all aspects of the ryu.

If one isn't learning from someone who has completed the entire syllabus and can teach and apply the different disciplines, one will have a skewed view of what the schools are comprised of and what they have to offer. Hence the argument you often here for supplementing the jujutsu with other arts, or claims that our syllabus is only for getting back to your feet as quickly as possible.

 

So you're implying Hatsumi hasn't had the requisite time to master the techniques of takagi yoshin ryu? Because his movement on the ground is terrible.

 

That kind of assumes grappling hasn't evolved since the times those arts were created. It also implicitly ignores Kano's contribution to Japanese martial arts. Or martial arts in general.

Holding mount on someone who has good hip escapes, having a good hip escape, passing guard, just about anything from half guard...

These are all innovations that have come with an intense competition focus on grappling. Every other human endeavor evolves under pressure, it seems counter intuitive to think grappling is somehow different.

 

I guess it seems to me that discussing whether the Takamatsuden has ground grappling or not is academic, if those techniques are in the hands of a select few who won't demonstrate them. Kind of like talking about how Judo has striking in it; that's great that the old kata emphasize them, but pragmatically speaking, how does that effect the average student?

 

Not really true, many ryu-ha were/are more the equivalent of university/college as apposed to primary school. Which might be why Hatsumi said that judo includes the essence of the martial arts.

Traditionally many warriors were taught by family members, and also had experience in sumai / gekken etc, so that any ryu-ha later learnt built on this base ability and taught specific situational material, like a finishing school.
but that root material isnt included in the curriculum. A good example of this is the use of over and underhooks, there plenty of waza in the BJKN countering them and using them, but virtually no-one who can wrestle properly.

 

Some of the ideas are kinda right, the application is terrible, which is why training with wet fish makes you a worse Martial Artist, too much false positive reinforcement.