Sorry mate we must be getting our wires crossed here as i totally agree with you, thats what i mean about bad grades in this country, and of course your right about Japan, i can think of one very big organistation in Tokyo that most people are under and i truely think most of there modern teachers are terrible. Although there old teachers ie kishamuras deshi,s -most where dynamite.
No Probs, Aikido is a really tough martial art to teach and like tai chi does attract a fair number of ponces. However I have come across (IMO) a few good aikido instructors in the UK. The Bear.
Sorry I have to take issue this this.. The WHOLE point of this discussion is ABOUT good "instructors" Finding a Sensei when you first start a martial art can* be affected by the level of so called experience (indicated by a grade) that an individual has. UNLESS you know different, if I told you I had an 8th dan Shihanship in BUDO would you know what the hell that really meant ? Proberbly not. Sounds impressive though right ? The providence of people's grades is vastly important and merely dismissing them in favour of just "find a good instructor" is too simplistic. How does anyone know what is a good instructor untill they have some experience in the discipline.
It is incredibly hard to evaluate any Dan grading except to make a subjective evaluation of, say, a 3rd dan in another style and one in your own. I've very often heard dan grades 'rubbish' the gradings awarded in other styles. My instructor always refused to do this. I once went round to his house and his first few Dan grade certificates were in a corner of his lounge - signed by O Sensei, from my instructor's time training in Japan with Shioda. Other higher Dan grades were awarded to him by Gozo Shioda. Then what? As O Sensei and Shioda died and our own organisation split from Yoshinkan, who was then qualified to say what my instructor's contribution to the art was worth. He died a couple of years ago as a 9th Dan, awarded by a first generation aikidoka who himself was graded to the highest level by Shioda. Who is in a position to argue the relevance of this 9th Dan grading? In our school, formal syllabus gradings are held to 3rd Dan. Thereafter, grades are related to the contribution one makes to the art and the school, in addition to contiuous evaluation of skill development as a practitioner and instructor. As there are only other first generation aikidoka around, from different styles than Shioda, I would say not even the Honbu Dojo can do so, unless you agree with some kind of hereditary patronage. Politics play a huge part in the 'recognition' of grades, anyway. I once had a judo sensei whose grade was refused by the BJA at a time when they began to flex their muscles in the 70's - he had been exclusively trained and graded in Japan. They very soon had their wrists slapped and pulled their heads in! I've also been awarded a Dangerous Dan and a Steely Dan in Budo - do they count?
kiaiki the purpose of this thread was aimed explicitly at grades in budo, not grades of this style versus the same grade of that style. More or less the obsurdity of giving any kind of rank in the practice of "budo". Well to be fair the thread didnt label budo grades as obsurd, I did. More or less it was addressing the legitimacy of the practice.
Thought Dave Humm's last posting was about good instructors and how difficult it is to find one when dan grades are so difficult to evaluate - and didn't he start the thread. When did you lose it?? I also thought it might be interesting to give details of one UK aikido instructor who became a soke, as Dave Humm mentioned this also. Budo is not a martial art but a way of life - so I must be worth at least a 7th Kyu by now?
Yeah you're right, it has been a while since I revisited this particular thread and I forgot it had taken such a drunken swirve (as all threads around here tend to do... ) Dave, BAD DAVE, no more drinking and posting!
Ah, but 'Aiki' Budo includes very heavy drinking (at least with Tohei and Shioda's generation I'm told- so I revise my grading in it to 5th Kyu immediately!
Your joking right... I NEVER post whilst sober... what freakin fun would that be ??? LMAO Seriously, thanks for the continued replies. Getting back to the thrust of the thread... Grades in BUDO I won't enter the arena of debating good or bad instructors however, I will be happy to continue to "gob off" if required about Aikidoka claiming dan grades in a philosophical subject, (however closely related to aikido or the martial arts it may be) it's bloody absurd in my book. Not so strangely, the prime culprits (Google.co.uk for "Dan Budo") are mostly IMHO over inflated Yudansha anyway, the highest I've seen thus far is 8th dan Aikido - 8th dan Budo !!!! 16 dan grades in two subjects. Personally, I find it a bit of an insult that these individuals think I'm dumb enough to fall for this BS. The sad affect is that those who know no better proberbly do. Addressing the post relating to Saito Sensei, I have absolutely no problems with Saito Sensei being called or titled Soke, especially given this Sensei's unquestionable history, I do however take issue to people who for their own reasons, form some small independant unaffiliated organisation, crank up the Yudansha grades and later call themselves "Soke" "Shihan" etc etc etc. Oh and prolly add a few Budo Grades in for good measure ! Any way I'm in need of a beer, feeling sober isn't kewl !
Oh for the love of... Just had the misfortune of finding this information via google.co.uk ...6th Dan Aikido, 6th Dan Aiki Budo, 5th Dan Budo-Do, 4th Dan Budo I'm (almost) speechless at this person's stupidity levels, and this chap runs an organisation in the UK. How many freakin' Budo's can one bloody man have ?
As has been established there are no martial arts called budo in Japan, there maybe in other countries but how they came about the name I can only guess. Not all martial arts are termed budo, there are another 3 terms used. Budo is used to describe an art that uses self defence techniques as tool to improve the character of its practitioners. The literal meaning is to stop two spears; this is generally interpreted as a way of stopping conflict. In budo this is achieved by not only physical self-defence techniques, but also developing the understanding of practitioners of themselves and others. It is a way of teaching the value of relationships and manners in maintaining good relations. If you view it at a wider viewpoint you can see the same principles applied in various countries foreign policy. In this case it is not only building a strong military system to defend your country, but also developing good relations so people don’t want to attack you or will help you when needed. So it is possible to have a yudansha rank in a form of budo, but not one for budo. It could be possible that the art was named by someone who didn’t understand the meaning of budo, or their reference for their name comes from somewhere else.
Hi Colin how goes it down under ? You are correct, Budo is a generic term not a physical martial practice. As I've mentioned before Budo can be (in part) described as a philosophy deeply integrated into the roots and traditions of martial disciplines. Indeed there a small number of actual professors of Budo in Japan, one that springs to mind is based at Wasada University (his name escapes me at this early hour) Interstingly though, he doesn't have Yudansha grades in the subject. I can see the logic of your post however, in my last entry where one Aikidoist claims... 6th Dan Aiki Budo, 5th Dan Budo-Do, 4th Dan Budo Not just one form of Budo but THREE !!!! That's reaching seriously stupid levels What the hell is Budo-do ???? Is it like Aikido-do ??? These people really must think very highly of themselves. I challenge ANYONE to find a Japanese Aikido Sensei with a yudansha grade in Budo. Regards
I think we agree, I don’t believe anyone has a yudansha rank in budo as a form of art, only that they can have a yudansh rank in a form of budo. Anyone claiming to be black belt in budo would be incorrect; however this could change if someone invented an art and called and it budo (this would show a lack of understanding of the term, but it seems to happen often in martial arts). As to your challenge, I would widen it and include any Japanese martial art. There is no martial art named budo that I'm aware of in Japan, only forms of budo. Things are well here in Australia thanks, what about Japan? Have you been over there long?
I know it's tough to find out about pedigree and lineage sometimes, but I gotta say you're right about Saito. Yes, there are crap martial artists out there with a good pedigree, but it does reduce the odds. Can't say how lucky we all felt to learn from an instructor who learned from Shioda and O Sensei himself in Japan. Heresay is a dreadful thing, but I have heard from several sources that being the son of Morihei Ueshiba and having some of that DNA don't necessarily suit someone to lead a martial art on to the next generation..
Same could be said for Shioda's son, Saito's son, my son....still leaves a nasty taste in the mouth though.
I disagree only from the perspective of; If one's sensei is still living, is european (in my case English) and is the head of an organisation, it should not be difficult to learn whatever information required about that person's aikido related history. For a couple of reasons: Although we follow a Japanese tradition, our European counterparts are 'free' from the socialogical bounds of classical asian thinking (a good reference to this his here http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4448) therefore it isn't diffuclt to respectfully obtain this type of information provided it is pertinant. Also, Aikido here in the UK has only been in existance for 49 years, I would hazard an educated guess and say, there arn't ANY senior or well known aikidoists who don't hold some form of 'accredited' certification from some sources. Agreed, no one in their right mind would challenge Saito Sensei's position or credibility as the head of Iwama Ryu. It is however understandable in some cases, hearsay is caused by a lack of fact, facts are by and large indisputable, people who embelish their historical backgrounds and cannot (obviously) prove what they say, will allways be subjected to hearsay, indeed they create it for themselves. Add in to this equasion, stupid grades in Budo and what we have is Aikido which might as well be Walt Disney Ryu - Mickey Mouse stylee I can't comment on your thoughts about the Ueshiba family specifically, personally I think the present Doshu is a 'stand up guy' however, Yes I would agree that just because one's family is responsible for something, doesn't always mean it's siblings are automatically the best sources to continue with it.
Yeah...guess I'm having a rant in 2 directions - Those who con beginners with spurious grades and tales of a life they wish they'd had but never did. Those who still benefit from an almost feudal system of inheritance without necessarily having any merit.. Personally, I place a lot of store in lineage and I always tell anyone in the pisition of a student (college, university or any religion) to DIG DEEP and ask the questions: 'What right has this person to stand in front of me and instruct me? What have they done, how recently and who taught them?' Strewth have I upset some 'gurus' and 'masters' and 'sensei'!! But they all deserved it! I don't go in for unquestioning obedience - unless they've got a gun on me!
