Someone as handsome as me what do you think.? ( something tells me I should not have asked that) Koyo Edit sadly they keep throwing their pension books at me!!
Tell me about it. All I ever get is dead fish and the occasional seal. A question to the others and be honest. How much does a grading mean to you? The Bear.
When I was being intentionally held back from grading by the egotistical tosser in charge of the dojo I trained in, my next grading actually became an unhealthy fixation for me. That situation is thankfully no more and, having been out of that environment for some time, I'm not in the slightest interested when I next grade, I see that as my Sensei's responsibility to determine when I've progressed sufficiently both physically and mentally. However; to my students and for the club to which I run, my yudansha status is of course of some importance but this is not a personal issue for me but one of an 'image' [for want of a better description] which the club presents to potential students. The reality is of course that despite my grade, I may be seen as senior to some, I am actually a junior (and happy to seen as such). My belt & hakama are pretty much semantics compared with ability on the mat (both doing and teaching). Regards
I won't restrict my comments to only Aikido but to what I consider martial arts in general. First off, what someone does in "Their own house" is mostly their own business and it would be very disrespectful to go into someone else's dojo and tell them what to do. Always show respect in public as if you were surrounded by grandmasters (because maybe you are and you don't realize it...lol), at the same time, what you do and say in private among friends and family is also your business, and is understood should be kept private. Second, this is my opinion and should not be considered anything but my opinion. Grading to me should not be given, it should not be earned, it should be taken... like the first scene in Ong-bak where all the village young men climb the big tree to get the ribbon. Only one can get it, they push each other from the tree to get to the ribbon. They are not trying to kill each other, but the one that gets the ribbon, gets it because he took it from the rest. When presented your ranking, you do not hesitate, you take it with your strength from your master. If you are not strong enough to take it, you are not ready to have it. You can interpret my words how you want, but I will clarify that it is more in attitude and symbolism this is done these days, it is not the old days where you would challenge and defeat your master to become the next master. Again, always show respect!!! ------- Moving on, more of my opinion... when someone in "your organization" is awarded a higher rank, it is good to pay them respects with a visit if possible. I don't know how it is in various organizations, but I will say that where I am at, you pay them a visit with a few of your black belts, a dozen if you can. You can participate in their lessons, but mostly you come to give them a sincere congratulations and to watch their stuff. Double edged sword here. If you like what you see, you honestly proclaim that they are deserving of the rank. However, if you don't like what you see, you say nothing. In private you discuss things through your lineage up to the top and as peers these high ranking folks (7th-8th+ or higher degree) discuss your concerns in private. LET THEM CLEAN THEIR OWN HOUSE. Always be respectful and be sincere. Your organization is like your family.
Rebel.. Mate Whilst I see what you're saying, I think the question is much simpler and directed at one's own opinions on gradings for one's self. Although you've prefixed your comments with "your opinion" what you've written does smack a little of a chastising lecture about respect. I have to say that people have to earn my respect and I don't freely give it unless warranted. I don't pay lip service to senior grades simply because they're senior, there's waaaaay too many self proclaimed eejits out there to be offering respect defacto on the provision of etiquette and etiquette alone. Equally so, I'm not disrespectful either I judge people on their own individual merits and afford them courtesy accordingly. Your comment... "in their house". This is a bit of an issue for me I'm afraid. There are far too many "houses" out there and many of them are run by egotistic individuals who are intentionally doing it "their way" when in reality they're grossly off line with orthodox methods. Independance isn't bad per sé, indeed there are fine schools and teachers who arn't associated with larger organisations however, these are very few compared with the sheer number of those litterally doing things "their way" rather than following orthodox methods.
Well in that case, I don't feel that I earned or deserve any ranking I've ever gotten. I'm just who I am whether I'm Sifu or Sensei to some or just a begginer to others. On the other hand, when presented with rank, I know to take it, fight for it, and to be thankful for it. If I cannot take it, I'm not ready for it. This is how I feel about my rank. Yes indeed I did dwell a lot on respect... obviously that is important to me, but what I was trying to discuss was the importance of an organization to police their own ranks (their own house). Dave, if your school and my school were affiliated in the same close organization, I would do my best to visit you or you come visit me, we would actually be testing each other out. Seeing if what we see meets up to each of our own high standards. This would be fitting if we were peers. If we did not feel the other met up to our own standards, we could discuss this as peers, we could disband the organization and go our separate ways... but in time we could still be friends and still respect each other. However, if we agreed that each other was the real thing in our own eyes, then we could confidently keep our affiliation between schools. It would be honest, our appreciation for each other's school would be the real thing. If someone bad mouth your school from my part of the world, I might pay them a visit and see what they are made of, I would do something to cover your back. If you have a student promoted to a rank he or she could open their own school, and they did. We would try to go there and pay a visit to your student in new school. If I liked what I saw, then again it would be sincere and honest proclamation that they are deserving of the rank. If not, I would talk to you as a peer in private and let you know. You would be equally welcome to do the same for me. Just an example of what I mean. I'm just saying that if organizations did more "policing" of those affiliated with them without publicly airing out dirty laundry all the time, a higher standard of martial arts training could be expected. Is that a bad thing?
From a distance and from an unbiased point of view I would say your focus has moved from your own grade to others and the quality of their Aikido. Which I think is just as bad for you. If I were to hazard a guess I would say this shift in focus is preventing you from training without malice. It seems as though you are always looking back to the bad experiences, instead of looking forward to where the next hurdle is. Which in turn prevents you from training freely and stops you from progressing. On the issue of grade and respect. If a grade is awarded then it should mean something. If it doesn't mean anything, it's an empty guesture to award the grade and an empty guesture to accept it. Which is dishonest. I personaly feel when I train with someone I should train honestly with them. Which is why I never pay anybody lip service. Paying lip service isn't respect. It's sucking up. While sucking up might win me someones good grace, it won't improve my Aikido. Only honest training on my part and honest training on my ukes part will improve my Aikido. For my uke to train honestly with me, he or she must respect me. And I in turn must respect my uke. Lip service only serves to feed the ego. When an individual steps onto the mat to be my uke, they have my respect. I might not rate their Aikido as the best in the world. I might not be their friend. I might not even like that particular individual. But they will have my respect and I will give it freely because I will expect my uke to do the same form me. I will expect my uke to respect me enough to be open and honest about the quality of my technique and I will expect my uke to trust me enough to allow them to provide me with honest and commited attacks. My uke must trust me when they are potentially putting themselves in harms way for the benefit of my training. How can I expect to be trusted if I am not a trusting person? How can I expect anybody to do these things for me if I am not willing to do the same for them? Without each other we cannot train properly.
Respect the man NOT his grade I have seen reasonable people "go native" when they reached dan grade. Go native is our term for Westerners who suddenly turn Japanese. I heard a teacher yell at his students "Why you no lissen when I show you?" he was Scottish.!!! David Humm mentioned a fifty year old and a sixty year old who have recently taken up aikido. NOW THERE ARE TWO WORTHY OF RESPECT.When aikido first arrived on these shores a dan grade ment something. IT MENT YOU WERE BEGINNING TO LEARN. Now there are so many masters that my head is spinning. Grades are for eggs . A man deserves respect for what he does not for what he wears round his waste.Aikido is about sincerity if there are a couple of shihan and a dozen students training sincerly they all deserve THE SAME RESPECT. Koyo
How come this got turned around and fixated on me and my grades ? I can assure you, I train without malice (to use your words) but.. I don't suffer fools gladly and whether you wish to accept that or not, fools exist and many of them have supposedly high grades. You also suggest I'm not progressing.. A bit arrogant of you don't you think to suppose this because of what I write. Our art is filled with idiots and false grades; all I'm saying is that respect is earned not commanded by the number of dan grades a person claims to have. With respect to the quality of other people's aikido... I have little interest in what people consider good or bad aikido (in general) however; when I get visitors to my dojo (which I do from time to time) from other clubs who ** apparently ** have very senior grades as their instructors and, claim all sorts of absolute ****e to make what they do seem more credible.. Then yes I do get a bit concerned when these people pontificate about how good their sensei is yet, quite often, these same students can't make ukemi correctly or actually perform the rudimentary basics of their art despite having a black belt around their waste. Recently one of my gokyu students was accused openly on the mat by a supposed shodan from another club of "hurting" him. When I questioned both individuals and asked the shodan to illustrate what had been done to him, it turned out that my gokyu student who performs full ukemi from almost any waza, had just done several overhead falls from techniques applied to him by the shodan so, it's now his turn and he makes the judgement that he's training with yudansha and gives him every bit the same technique and the yudansha crumples to the floor with a thump.. No ukemi of any real description. So how does this situation occur ? It occurs in part because overly graded individuals essentially give away grades to people who shouldn’t be middle kyu grades let alone a dan grade. Hence, my slight pre-occupation with standards. At a recent nationally organised seminar the majority standard of aikido represented by almost all the organisations here in the UK was absolutely shocking, is that my business to be bothered by that ? May be not however; one of the biggest reasons, if not T H E reason why we don’t co-operate between clubs/organisations/instructors is because vast differences in ability exist (grade for grade) from one club/organisation/instructor to another. - And this is by and large because these people are "doing their own thing"
ROFL, you are a popular guy Dave. Why don't you have a seat on the couch and tell us all about it? :Alien: Your bill is in the mail. :love: ------- BTW, I like to think that regardless of rank, people are still willing to learn. In this regard, no matter what rank/grade one is, they are always still a student.
If popularity is judged on agreeing with people then I'm quite happy to wear the "billy no mates" tee shirt. I'd much rather be respected by one person because I speak my mind and hold strong opinions rather than be respected by many simply because I hold a majority opinion.
Sorry Dave but that is MY tee shirt you are talking about. Billy Koyo To hell withe nicknames Koyo is an incredibly clever disguise for my true name. Maybe if people posted their true names and website so we can know who we are speaking to we could place more relevance on what is said. Billy Coyle makotokai.co.uk
The site I usually post on, we are required to post with our real names. It is just more respectful that way. Well except for children (underage) that are protected from giving out personal information over a public website. PM me if you require such information, but I do like to keep some mystery in life.
Ah Koyo, But then you begin to listen to those who have well printed propaganda. Every post should be judged by the words it contains not because it was posted by koyo or Dave Humm. What's next we post our ranks and our lineage? The Bear.
Now that my rant is over on identity lets get back on topic. I think Dave Humm is being honest here and it what I asked of him. I can't deny that at times I still get a twinge at all the gradings, bai shi ceremonies and certificates I have refused. I would look a much better martial artist on paper than I am in reality and sometimes I am still attracted to idea of rising through ranks in a major Aikido organisation but then the cold light of day hits and I remember that training until I am drenched in sweat and exhausted is the best I can get from any martial art. I have seen many a dan grade who hasn't broken a sweat thinking that guy looks a mess but I know I have put everything I have into this session while he has coasted. The Bear.
Point taken Bear come to think of it anyone can create a "good" website. I stand corrected. Thanks. Koyo
The problem is that waaaay too much emphasis is placed on how many dan grades a person has and not, on the [actual] time spent in the art(s) and the experience that affords them. Experience does not always equate to a specific dan grade, this of course works several ways: I have direct experience of several people in all three scenarios 1.. You have very experienced, knowledgeable and time served individuals holding a low dan grade 2.. You have people who claim to be experienced and knowledgeable holding often outrageously high grades 3.. You have very experienced, knowledgeable and time served individuals holding a credible number of dan grades I myself have dan grades from one credible organisation here in the UK which aren't fully recognised with the affiliation I now hold; my grades should be (are) far less important than the actual level of ability I hold or the theoretical knowledge and background held through experience. I look at everyone else using the same model because, with some experience of what constitutes "ability" it is very easy to level out where people fit (in my opinion of course) on the scale of grades vs. experience in direct comparrison with those whom I trust; have similar grades/ability/experience. Often, I find quite remarkable differences which is a shame Regards
The trouble is grade is supposed to be an indicator of experience, knowledge and ability. If you do indeed posess the skill that you claim, I see no reason why anybody should fail or refuse to recognise that ability or grade. To do so makes absolutly no sense.
See your comments in bold mate as you hit the nail firmly on the head with "supposed to" very often they don't, and that's my point. Bits of paper on the wall count for nothing if one's ability is lacking on the mat. "The trouble" [to use your words] is that with the ever increasing number of eejits claiming titles such as shihan and outrageously high grades awarded by suspect organisations (or indeed by their own organisation) and, they in turn teach anything from the weird the down right ridiculous, the topic of grade and ability just gets even more subjective to discuss and ultimately control. This one of the reasons why grades per sé are worth very little across the mired of organisations existing today; and why I'm far more interested in the number of years a person has spent training, before I learn/ask what dan grade they hold. Even if a senior dan grade attends my dojo, that person still has to earn the respect of the students on the mat, respect is earned not automatically commanded based on grade alone, likewise ability is proven through 'doing' and not automatically assumed based on the number of embroidered bars on a black belt. As a rule of thumb, it is my experience that those who expect respect based on rank have an ego problem, those who do not, don't. Regards
hmmm.... I may be reading the posts incorrectly, but my view is that all people deserve respect, regardless of rank. I also believe that people don't have to prove anything. As for proving on the mat what they claim, see my before comment that I don't believe anyone has to prove anything. However, given some reasonable dialogue and training, if they are less than they claim to be, this will become obvious to others just by what they say and the actions they take. In other words, everyone deserves respect until they prove they don't deserve it. Even so, if someone is sincerely willing to learn, that attitude deserves respect always, IMHO.
