Grades in Aikido

The latest controversy about grades and affiliations has got me thinking again about grades, grading standards, and Martial Arts organizations. In a matial art as young as aikido it is funny how many "branches" , ryuha, and styles we see. It is also funny how many people think they have to be able to trace their roots to the hombu or O'Sensei.

Do a Google on aikido styles and it is amazing how many show up. So I am wondering if Aikikai, Iwama, Yoshikan, Yoseikan, Shin'ei Taido, and Tomeki (I know there is debate here) are the "legitimate" recognized styles, what of all the others?

And what of grades awarded by high ranking Sensei at courses? Or diplomatic gradings? Or time in the Arts gradings? I have seen and known people with all of these and as in all things some are good and some really are awful.

What are your opinions of grades awarded by organizations like the AMA or World Soke Council, or awarded by small organizations such as my grade. I am quite pleased that the people who graded me did so, and I am quite sure and confident in my skills, and have proven them through practice, demonstration and being willing to step on the mat anywhere.

My question is this I suppose, because my grade isn't from a MAJOR organization or from a prominent Sensei does that make it any less? I have never claimed to be affiliated with anyone I am not, and you probably wouldn't know most of the people I have trained with (other than courses) but by all accounts I am pretty good :Angel: so how do we judge by grade, or should we?

Personally I am not graded in Aikido, though I do numerous courses and visit schools and find my aiki jujutsu translates very well, uke just tends to squirm a little more

 

My own opinion of grade has always been that it is relative only to the organisation that awarded it. No other organisation has any obligation to recognise your grade. Different organisations concentraight on different aspects of Aikido. And different organisations will have different standards.

All of my dan grade certificates were awarded to me by my own teacher as he now runs his own independant organisation. For each grade I have had to take a practical examiniation. And each time my ukes have put a good deal of effort into knocking me over. I've worked for my grades and while I always tend to think I could have done things better. Over all I'm happy with the results.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter who signed your certificate. Your only ever going to be as good as you train. And it's the general practice that's important to me. Not a one off examination.

 

Indeed I have to agree with wolfie on this point although, I must add that whilst in general principle it doesn’t matter who issues/signs ones certification it does matter a great deal if the person responsible for these certificates is considered too or appears to have a questionable background. This in turn often casts negative repercussions upon the credibility of not only the documentation students hold but also the quality and standards associated with it.

Of course quality is quality no matter where you gain it from however, like many things, "quality" can be in the eye of the beholder and; one man's "quality" organisation can and often is another man's load of old ****.

Regards

 

Well, then, it would seem to me that if they can all trace themselves to the founder and O'Sensei wanted to spread Aikido around the world that there would be one organization and one Aikido (philosophy aside about there being one aikido) rather than the dozens of groups and methods. So, who IS doing the founders aikido?

I have never trained with any of these though I did see Heiny do a demo and, yes, she looked good. I can also say that not all Sensei that train at hombu or in Japan are all that good. We recently visited a dojo here in PA, that while they trained hard, and the 5th Dan had just returned from Japan, had lived there for 10 yrs, I really don't think anyone in the Dojo could fight. They were super nice people, treated us very well, I didn't see what they did as Martial Art. We visitied another dojo from a small group that wanted to prove that their techniques were stronger, and they also claim Japanese roots. While they were very combative, there wasn't much Aiki... so which was correct?

So sorry, I missed them, you are correct.

Went to a course he gave in California years ago, IMHO He is big, strong, incredibly fast and aggrogant beyond all belief.

Actually I am content with my grading, and I don't think I have asked or demanded that you or anyone else hold my grade in any particular esteem. I asked your opinion of grades from multistyle organizations, small societies, and small ryuha. It is this sense of superiority that I often find in Aikido people that baffles me.

 

It all comes back to politics or a difference of opinion on how Aikido should be taught and developed. Some teachers think Aikido should remain firmly rooted in physical technique while other teachers choose to emphasise the medatative aspects geared towards general good health and clean living. And there are other teachers who continue to develop Aikido, further refineing the teachniques passed on to students while other teachers think it is best to preserve Aikido as it was when O Sensei died.

The fact of the matter is nobody in this day and age is teaching or practicing exactly what O Sensei taught. Teachings and teachniques have been changed for better or worse. What we do practice are a number of systems we collectivley call Aikido that have all been derived from what O Sensei was teaching when he was alive. Even in the early days of Aikidos development some of O Senseis students chose to go their own way and continued to call their systems Aikido. So splinter groups have always been a fact of life in Aikido.

There has simpley never really been one single Aikido.

 

I agree completely, and it is always politics that causes these divisions. Or I suppose EGO.

Trying to bring us back on point, who then decides what is right and correct? Granted, inside of Aikikai Aikido the Hombu through Doshu does, and through Yoshikan it was Mochizuki (I really don't pay that close attention so please correct me if I am wrong), and so forth and so on. But who decides which is right? I have some very good friends in Martial Arts who always roll their eyes when I mention Aiki arts. Not because they don't think they work but because of what they call "Aiki Ego's".

(my emphisis) This kind of statement seems to prove out the point and is also in direct contradiction with what aikiwolfie has said. So which is true?

 

Agreed however, whilst the underlying philosophical principle of aikido was of unification of people, I have to express that in my opinion, I doubt the founder would 'like' the aikido of many people practicing today. Some of it is absolute garbage.

This is because of three reasons:

1. It is well documented that they did in fact study under the founder, and are/were not attempting to BS anyone
2. None of these people (to my limited knowledge) ever made outlandish or ridiculous claims about themselves
3. These people actually knew/no their stuff and don't/didn't attempt to teach "Desperate Dan" Aikido...

...Hence no one questions their credibility.

See point 2 above. Its not one's affiliation or membership which can be seen as a problem (generally) but statements, claims and often down right lies that some people make in order to portray themselves as something they're not. It’s a matter of cause and effect... These people cause controversy surrounding themselves when the effects of people like myself expose them for what they are.

And with absolute respect to you Mac, regardless of your legal definition of what may constitute a "vendetta" If, more people actually questioned (politely and respectfully) the legitimacy of grades and lineage, there'd be less opportunity for the unscrupulous types to prey on the unsuspecting.

I'm not having a pop at anyone especially Aikimac whom I respect but, I did feel the above statement needed to be said.

Kind regards as always

 

I would disagree and this is why.

While splinter groups have always been a fact of life within Aikido circles all of those groups have their roots firmly with O Sensei. If there were a central organisation within Aikido circles it would be the Aikikai as this is a continuation of the organisation O Sensei founded. The Aikikai it's self has many branches and they don't all teach exactly the same thing. Groups that operate totally independantly from the Aikikai are probably best looked on as new saplings that have grown from the seeds of the Aikikai.

For each group to be teaching Aikido, they must start with the fundamental basics. From there on in there can be many different paths to take. Some will lead in the right direction while others won't. Some paths will be longer while others will be shorter. There is no single absolute correct path to the goal.

If you start a technique with good posture and finish with good posture you can always work on fixing the mess in the middle. Which is what Aikido is all about really. At the beginning of our lives we are born and at the end we die. These things are predetermind and we can't change them. But we can still work on the mess in the middle.

I'll stop rambleing now.

 

Which groups do you refer to mate ? I know several here in the UK who claim to have links and ties with the Aikikai yet delve below the surface and the aikido they teach is absolute crud.

I think it was Philip Smith who said on this forum some time ago, it isn't the fact that a person starts their own group or organisation which is the problem, it's their motives.

Whilst this is partly true, orthodox Aikikai Aikido - That which is taught at Hombu Dojo by the Doshu, has a particular look and feel about it, the orthodox nature of technique taught by the past, present and of course future Doshu will naturally alter given they are themselves unique people however, therein lies an important point. These people have the right to develop the art, Aikido belongs to the Ueshiba family and no one else. No one has the right to alter techniques or bastardize them. Unfortunately this has however happened by people who IMHO have the conceitedness to take it upon themselves to do just that.

Hombu Dojo appoints several people both in Japan and around the world with the authority to teach Aikido - These people are Shihan, many of these people run their own organisations, they are trusted by Hombu Dojo to promogulate Aikido where ever they live, they are authorised to offer kyu and dan grades which are ultimately authorised by the Dohsu.

Whether we like it or not, if we're talking about studying Aikikai Aikido, if your certificate isn't issued from M. Ueshiba, you do not hold a grade (either kyu or dan) in Aikikai aikido. Naturally people who study under Hombu Shihan receive their certification from their particular instructors; their certification is only valid within their own organisation until such time they enter the Yudansha records having gained Shodan. Are these kyu grades legitimate ? Of course they are but they are not Aikikai grades.

This issue is even more exasperated when we talk about groups who hold absolutely no affiliation to any style specific Hombu.

You think ? ? I would ask the question, if these groups are (to use your words) "...grown from the seeds of the Aikikai" Why then are these groups independent of the organisation that many claim some form of link ?

Ok here you and I are in 100% agreement however, how do these groups actually know what constitutes as "fundamental basics" ? Indeed "independence" means they are not part of an organisation whose job it is to maintain standards.

I agree there isn't one absolute path, but then I think its fair to suggest that if you are studying Aikikai Aikido, the Aikikai (or at least through one of their many trusted Shihan) might be the place to draw one's technical direction.

IMHO this matter isn't political. It isn't a matter of whose right or wrong, its a matter of maintaining technical quality. If more people respected the fact that Aikikai Aikido is lead by the Doshu, and followed the teachings thereof we'd have far less crap in the Aikido community. Whilst I will concede there are a few people who have that technical ability outside of Hombu affiliation, these people of few and far between compared with the ever increasing mired of people who mistakenly 'think' they have the skills.

Now, I've said this before and I'll say it again, I don't automatically equate 'independence' to mean crap - Far from it however, we cannot escape the fact there are a growing number of organisations here in the UK (I can't speak for anywhere else) who are "doing their own thing", much of this bears no real relationship to what is being taught by those 'trusted' by Hombu Dojo to teach aikido on their behalf.

Minarou Kanetsuka - Shihan
Ken Cottier - Shihan
William Smith MBE - Shihan
Terry Ezra - Sensei

Like it or not, only these four people are authorised to submit Yudansha grades on behalf of their students.

Lets take the example of what has happened relating to the teaching of Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto Ryu.

There has been a huge row and controversy over this matter. Only Students who are members of the dojo in Narita Japan, who have taken the Keppan oath are considered "legitimate" students of the Ryu. Now, Otake Shihan authorised a small number of trusted students with Shidoshi - Permission to teach TSKSR however, students of these instructors are still not considered members of the Ryu Dojo unless they have taken the keppan in Japan, indeed since one Shidoshi holder passed away, his students continued to teach and train, these people have been informed they are NOT authorised to do so !!

In the UK there are only FOUR legitimate TSKSR students and one instructor authorised to teach it. Scour the net however, and you'll find several groups *independent* of the Ryu in Japan teaching the art. They are simply not authorised to teach what is the property of the present Soke (which isn't BTW Otake Shihan)

The Aikikai do not recognise the providence of ANY certificate not issued by them directly (or through their trusted Shihan) Its all a matter of maintaining standards, no politics or opinions because; the only opinion which matters (if you study Aikikai Aikido) is the Doshu's

Sorry for the loooong post.

Kind regards

 

Groups like the ones listed here.

I would dissagree. Any reputabel teacher who chooses to take a different path from the Aikikai must as a consiquence of that action re-think how techniques are taught and performed. Otherwise it's just Aikikai Aikido without Aikikai recognition. And many reputable teachers have parted with the Aikikai over the years. Men like Gozo Shioda, Koichi Tohei and Kenji Tomiki. Even Iwama Ryu severed ties with the Aikikai recently. Should these people not be teaching and practicing Aikido?

We're talking about Aikido in general and not just the Aikikai. The world really is a bugger place. I've also always maintained on this forum grades are relevant only to the organisation that awarded them. No where have I said my grade or indeed anybody elses who studies Aikido independantly of the Aikikai holds an Aikikai grade. In fact I don't recall anybody here claiming anything like that. I must have missed something somewhere.

I belong to a group independant of the Aikikai. I've never personally claimed a conection to the Aikikai it's self and neither has my teacher. However my teacher was taught by Sensei Kenneth Williams who was not only Kenshiro Abbes' assistant but was also later taught by Koichi Tohei. So I can trace what I have been taught back to O Sensei.

Under those circumstances I personally don't have a problem with being part of an independant group. As for other less honest organisations, I have more to do with my time than go around hunting them down or discrediting them on the internet. They're just not that high on the adgenda.

Right and wrong are political matters. Especially when it comes to people pushing for an organisation to go one way or the other. It's a power struggle. In each case where a student has broken away from O Sensei or the Aikikai it has been because they didn't agree with the direction of development that was being taken. That is political however polite it may be worded by the parties involved.

I honestly find that hard to beleive. Perhaps you don't fully realise how you come across on this forum.

Some of the growing number of independant organisation will be 100% fraudulent. It's not a problem unique to Aikido or indeed to martial arts. The remainder are splinter groups of splinter groups founded by teachers who either split from the Aikikai or O Sensei. It should be no suprise that as Aikido spreads so will the number of organisations.

Lets not. You've laboured the point long enough and I'm still not convinced the Aikikai is the be all and end all of Aikido. Like it or not the Aikido community is far far bigger than the Aikikai.

A better way of maintaining comparable high standards across the board would be for these different groups to get together and practice together and respect each others grades rather than telling everybody off for teaching without permission.

 

As always mate you make some well made points, if I may I'd like to take issue with one or two.

Define Reputable, and when you make your definition (which will be only your opinion) consider how you'd quantify that with evidence of a person's reputable nature.

Well I can't discuss other styles of aikido because I don't study them. But as I've highlighted recently, there are people in this "bigger" world who are claiming association with the aikikai

No, you can trace lineage not the technical authenticity of what you do today and what Williams/Abbe and the founder were teaching back then.

Each to their own mate, I have no issues with your attitude toward frauds in our art, but don't expect me to take such a liberal attitude to people who are otherwise intentionally conning others. Attitudes such as yours however, make it a viable place for fraudsters to prey on the unsuspecting.

*some* people have legitimate reasons for not being a member of the Aikikai, some do not, it’s as simple as that. The very well known students of the founder you mention are a world apart from the 'average' Joe who sets up an organisation. People are free to do exactly as they wish, I have no intentional desires to interfere with their business however, that business should be conducted honestly, don't you agree ?

How on earth would you know that without people like myself, bringing their activities to your attention ? I do find your statement odd, you accept that fraudulent people/organisations may exist, yet you'd criticize me for exposing them to our community

I've never stated that the aikido community is limited to just the Aikiaki, that said; it IS the Headquarters for Aikido through out the world and it IS the source from which 99% of "Aikido" derives.

Indeed an idealistic goal and one I'd support however, as someone who has attended many multi-style seminars, most of these are of independent organisations, the standards of even basic aikido is shocking and lacking in any mainstream guidance.

Regards

 

I know Dave, like me, regularly expresses frustration at the frauds who invent a lineage they don't have, a grade they never received and teach crud in the name of an organisation such as Aikikai. However, the last posting almost seems to imply that only Aikiai can prove 'technical' authenticity' and that lineage is not enough..I can't see any evidence to support that claim unless Aikikai does more QA than the rest of the Aikido community. As Dave doesn't know what the rest of us do, how can he claim that we are any more likely to lack 'technical authenticity' than Aikikai - what do they do that is better?

My Sensei was taught by Shioda, and it is Shioda's 'lineage' connection with O Sensei which matters to me. Hmmm - so Dave thinks that such a link does not guarantee 'technical authenticity' - so the same number of links in an Aikikai lineage does? This assumes only Aikikai have an authentic curriculum and centrally controlled standards of instruction etc etc. Sorry but bigger organisations usually have the most trouble maintaining standards, not those which are smaller.

Any power group which is large may argue that it is the sole source of authenticity. Membership of Aikikai is no more a guarantee of quality/authenticity than membership of any other organisation tracing itself back to O Sensei:
Unless there is adherence to international quality assurance systems and standards, as seen in business and armed forces through ISO 9001/2 (formerly BS5750) for example, the argument carries little weight. If people get together in summer schools etc to share their style - they may be sharing rubbish. Even if they do have a set of standards for techniques and instruction, adherence to quality standards is no guarantee of HIGH quality, as the standard may be set low.

I have more of a problem with organisations which assume a BB is automatically a good teacher. In our association any club instructor had also to pass a series of theoretical and practical tests in all aspects of dojo management and technical instruction . It was also beginning to introduce NVQ TDLB qualifications which provide some evidence of standards and competence.

Every summer, these teaching tests were retaken and the instructor status renewed or taken away. Any deviation from the standard techniques and the written syllabus was corrected and any new developments disseminated for instructors to take back to the club members. International standards were adhered to in the same way, with instructors (from Poland to Malaysia) attending training and receiving dojo visits to assure quality. Whether those standards are 'authentic' is no more open for debate or debasement than those of the Aikikai, since both have been passed down from a direct senior student of O Sensei.

I have no way whatsoever of saying that a 3rd Dan grading from Shioda is more authentic/better quality than one from Tohei or from an Aikikai Sensei - it's like playing knife, stone, paper!

What I do know is that O Sensei granted Shioda authority to grade students and therefore acknowledged that the Aikikai should not be the sole source of 'authentic' Aikido - either in quality or style.

I have not trained in Aikikai Aikido, so I cannot judge its 'authenticity'. However, neither have I seen any evidence that Yoshinkan is not an 'authentic style'

 

Let me clarify;

I am NOT saying that students such as Shioda, Tohei or indeed Saito are not legitimately entitled to issue grades.

What I said to Wolfie is that these people are a world apart from the likes of Joe Public who set up independently and start issuing grades. And; some of these people then go on to make ridiculous claims to boot !

The pioneering uchideshi of the founder were "trusted" by him to teach aikido and as Kiaiki has stated Shioda was 'authorised' to teach the art and in turn offer grades in it. Many other people are not in such a position.

In the same way Shihan from the Aikikai are trusted sources of technical ability. Aikiwolfie used the word "reputable" in his last post. If I were looking to quantify what constituted a reputable source of aikido (and my case that’s Aikikai Aikido) I'd be looking to see who issued not only that instructor's grades but the authority to teach the art.

Adittionally, ability alone just doesn't cut it for me as a person; I need to be able to trust the instructor's integrity. I see the path of Budo and the path of a person's character in very similar ways. If a person is an ****, it’s been my experience their attitude extends in to their Aikido. This is a universal issue; it is not bound to just one style or indeed art.

Just my opinions.

AikiMac and I have been involved in a dialogue through this site's PM system, one of the issues that he has raised in connection with my 'interests' with Mr. Mclean related to my own grades and, my refusal to publicly disclose them.

I'll be honest and say I do find that a bit odd, purely because the irony of it.

It is exactly the nature of public statements which draw attention to those who make them. I have no desires to be anything other than "me" I know what I know and more importantly, I have a good idea of the things that I should know but don't. So, just for the public record here is the information that at least some people want to know.

After further consideration I have removed the information which was contained here. This is because in posting that information I compromised a stong belief simply to satisfy one person's curiosity, despite the fact that I have offered direct souces of that information, I will not disclose my Yudansha grade in the public domain as I do not see the need, I claim nothing and want nothing in return. If anyone wishes to confirm either my teaching qualification or my current grade you can contact the British Aikido Board and Mr. Keith Hayward respectively.


Regards as always

 

(is it wrong to quote from your own posts?? sorry if it is)

the last five posts are exactly what I am talking about and have absolutly nothing to do with what I originaly asked.

I suppose in a way I have gotten my answer. It just seems sad and very devisive... not very "aiki".

I understand why Dave did what he did with Les Hart and with Jack Poole, both were making claims that were false. This is no reflection on either mans aikido, I am not in a postion to do that, but it is point in fact that both men lied about who they were and were using the names of others to further their ends. I respect Dave for exposing them.

I do find the xenophobic attitude within different Schools of Aikido and Aikijutsu disturbing and fundamentally wrong-viewed, but that is just my opinion.

Peace to you

 

I think this debate is going pear shaped. Just be cause I talk of "Aikikai" doesn't mean I don't see the providence, quality and legitimacy of other organisations. Christ! I've seen some god awful crap taught under the name of Aikikai Aikido however, and this is the point most of you seem to miss in your attempts to defend your own positions or opinions of differing schools and organisations...

I'm not talking or referring to Shioda, Tomiki, Saito, Tohei, or any other uchi-deshi of the founder. Each of these people had the legitimate right to teach aikido as they saw fit because they either had the written authorisation or the blessing of the founder, I bet we'd be racking our brains to find such authorisation outside of any mainstream organisation.

What I AM attempting to discuss is that regardless of what style we may practice, what matters is the credibility of the technique - this boils down to quality and authenticity. This is partly associated with lineage but it is more associated with the 'here and now' . What is your present instructor teaching in the name of the style and lineage before him, is it still the same technique following the principles which make it work or, has it undergone a degree of alteration ? Secondly what authority has that person got to issue grades to people who in turn go on to teach what they have been taught? - Remembering of course, that if a particular standard isn't maintained, eventually what was once orthodox in nature finally ends up so far removed that it might as well be called something else.

If we're talking of a major organisation [insert the name of yours here] and it is directly associated with one of the mainstream schools of the uchi-deshi, one has a fair chance (but not a guarantee) that what is being taught has a proven record or authenticity based upon lineage and quality however; it stands to reason that as more people "do their own thing" for whatever motives they have, the further the art becomes less authentic, more bastardised, and open to people to abuse accepted systems such as grades, and titles.

Kind regards as always

 

I wouldn't go as far as calling you a fraud Dave. I don't think you are. However I also don't see why you should have a problem with giving a straightforward honest answer. Telling people your grade when asked isn't laying claim to anything. It's answering an honest question honestly.

As I have already said I'm sick of reading this crap about McSensei. I don't want it shoved in my face every single time I log on to the forum and I don't want it brought up in every single thread eithers. Especially by someone who can't answer the simplest of questions.

Now getting back on track. Grades from multi style organisations are fine in my book. As stated before I think grades are relevant only to the organisation that awards them. When the kyu/dan grade system was invented it was intended for Judo as far as I know. Not Aikido or any other art for that matter. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time and it won't be the last.

 

Let’s make a few distinctions before you cast any doubt upon my character.

1, when first asked about my grade I provided information for people to contact my Sensei who would validate my grade, because see point 2.

2, I have NEVER, even on my own dojo website disclosed my grades publicly - Why ? Because it’s got fek all to do with anyone other than me, my Sensei, his Sensei and my students, because see point 3.

3, I have NEVER made ridiculous claims about myself, grades or experience which warrants investigation, If you or anyone can find such claims feel free to investigate me, I have no Aikido skeletons in my closet.

4, Finally, I am so surprised to see that despite the fact I highlighted information sent to me which refutes Les McLean's claims as untrue, you heavily critsise the messenger for his message. If you don't like to read posts about McSensei, don't read them !

And just so there can be no cunfusion on the simple answer I gave in respect of AikiMac's request.. Here it is.

And my reply