Who studied what with Choi the longest should be the determinging factor of what Hapkido is? Well are those Masters who studied directly under Choi even teaching Hapkido? The fight over the name ,the techniques and everything that is written says that Choi wanted to maintain the art that he was taught yawara,Yool Sool,hapki yool Sool,so maybe those of direct lineage should use those names. I like the posts that say people like Seo,Suh and the Lee brothers didn't stay very long so is what they do actually hapkido. In Sun Seo left Choi as a Third degree. In Hyuk Suh and the Lee brothers were private students of Choi and left as second or third degree students. I have trained with Chin Il Chang ,who said that he was the only live in student of Choi and one of the longest students and one of the Highest,if not the highest ranked by Choi and the materials done with him are the same basic principles of Hapkido I have found through out Hapkido. I have seen seimars and or videos of Kondo,Ueshiba,Chin Il Chang,Myung,In Sun Seo,Ibarra,Pellegrini,Wollmershauser,Kang,So,Han and many others and I see the similarities of the arts over the differences. Everyone wants the mine is better than yours,yours is imitation mine is real,the reality is that we all share commonality of principles as applied to an art,we are on a board to discuss the art and what we enjoy,yet topics all go off line to prove who or what is real,better,best. Purity of art? there is no such thing,everyone who trains and teaches takes away and adds to that which they learn,but those additions and subtractions do not effect the base line principles that make the art or subject. Lets all try to enjoy the commonality we share rather than tear the people who were first generation practioners apart.
I have been on the mat with some of the top sin moo guys ( that were in that gmstrs pic) and thier stuff was a little different but conceptually the same . I have been to the akikan hombu in tokyo( and I get to go back soon!!! COOL ) and it was also conceptually similar but more like sin moo than ksw by far stylistically. Well that gallery and that video are exactly identifiable as WKSA/KSW syllabus. if it is recognizable as hkd then hkd and ksw are indeed more the same than I have estimated. and we are wasting valueable training time. I wish they would have called it "foo ling yu" it would have made the discussion even more fun. Yes, and it's pretty damn cool and lots of fun. Other then be with my family,There is nothing else I would rather do than train in "this stuff". gahmbatte!!!
***Thomas puts his sweaty uniform back on and gathers up the posters from this thread for some good ol' training***** Nice discussion all - thanks. I might not agree but it's nice to wrap our minds around some good stuff. Thanks for playing nice.
I've been taking a little look at the early years of Kuk Sool Won and Kuk Sool Kwan Hapkido and wondering how much and how deep were the cross-pollinations. Anyone know how deeply involved GM Kim Woo Tak was in Hapkido? (He's listed on the "Choisheet" as a student of 1960, along with Heo Il Oong, both listed as Kuk Sool Kwan). As far as I know, he was as student of Kim Moo-hyun (Shinmookwan) I've read that Kim Woo Tak's Kuk Sool Kwan Hapkido represented a mix of Hapkido with native Korean and Chinese arts, very much along the lines of what Suh In Hyuk was doing. He is sometimes recognized as the oldest Hapkido" grandmaster in Canada and sometimes as the oldest "Kuk Sool (kwan)" grandmaster in Canada. Does this represent the closeness of Hapkido and KSW?
Kim Moo Hong was an instructor under Choi. Kim Moo Hong was also a Teacher to the Lee Brothers of Hwarangdo/Hapkido. Kim Moo Hong was also the Teacher to Kim Woo Tak,who is the Original Creator of the Hapki Kuk Sool Kwon,member Kuk sool Hwe 62-64,head Kuk sool kwan Hapkido 65-75. Kim Woo Tak was a Teacher to In Hyuk Suh. The Lee Brothers also were instructors in Kuk Sool hwe 62-65,then it became In Hyuk Suh's 74. I believe,maybe slightly mistaken by the author,bit I believe an interview with GM Lim had him say that Kim was the one who took Choi's kicks and went to a temple and learned CHINESE kicks which he added to his Hapkido and which he took and Showed/trained Ji Han Jae in. The sphere of influence of this one Instructor and his student as an Instructor were vast,but hey it is not all true/real Hapkido,lol. They probably didn't stay long either and get high rank from Choi so they do not count as anything important.lol.
I would say yes. Also I found it very interesting that Master Marlin Sims points out in his article in the current issue of "Art of the Warrior" Magazine that "Kuk Sool Won Was origionally called Kuk Sool Hapkido." Thanks, J.B. Murphy
According to In Sun Seo,(oh ,oh the name that stirs the pot,lol),he and his brother In Hyuk Suh first taught Hapkido. Kuk sool won names in order of use: Hapki kuk sool kwan Kuk sool kwan Hapkido Kuk Sool Won Hapkido Kuk Sool Won The same as the Lee Brothers taught Hapkido then Hwarangdo Hapkido Hwarangdo
Ji Han Jae uses Chinese kicks in his Hapkido????? I train in Hapkido and have never used chinese kicks.
Sorry Times,but do you believe that all arts in Korea originated in Korea? or Are you among those who believe all martial arts originated in Korea and spread outward? Prior to the Japanese occupation the mojority of Korean arts came form Manchura and China. The Temples all these GMs went to were teaching Chinese styled martial arts. Does Ji Han Jae not credit Taoist Monk Lee,I guess this Taoist monk was Koreanized,lol. Kim Moo Hong studied Under Suh and Choi,took the original kicks and added the Chinese styled kicks he found at the near by temples,he showed them to Ji Han Jae,Chinese styled kicks over Korean Kicks. Everyone says Bruce Lee's Kicks were from Jhoon Rhee and Ji Han Jae,Bruce Lee showed his Kicks in the 60's and said they were Northern Shaolin. One would be hard pressed to look at kicks and say which art they are from,Shaolin,Shotokan,TKD and Savate are the same ,they have to be as the human body functions one way this is why a kick is a kick and strikes are strikes,lol. People can claim the Kicks to be country specific like Korean specific kick style,but they are not. Hey but if you are sure you are not doing Chinese styled kicks good for you. You should look more at the history and travel of Martial arts through the various countries.
Some thoughts, Some opinions I just recently signed up for MAP and have found it to be very informative and interesting to say the least. This particular thread, however, specifically caught my eye. Of course, this is mainly because my instructor has posted here and it seems to be a very popular thread within the Hapkido forums. First off, I would like to say that I have personally been in the good company of GM Seo and his family, and have been coached by them exclusively at seminars and the like. They are, without a doubt, purely exceptional as far as I am concerned. I would also like to re-iterate the consensus that GM Seo's character should not have been in question here. The main reason that I say this is the fact that the post originated as a request for footage of the man, and subsequently progressed as a critique of his over-all technical skills... ..which then progressed to a kind of a debate over what Hapkido is/was/ought to be, or possibly an informal complaint as to what it has become and an attempt to justify who knows more in regards to all of this. We all have an inclination towards defending our own and justifying what we know... not debating that at all... but... call me naive... I think that the bottom line is that the actual definition of Hapkido has been lost to certain patrons of this post. Or better yet, the way that Hapkido is defined has in some way been altered in regards to the actual concept of just the word itself. Through this, it has gradually mutated into a vague interpretation of what, in my opinion, it once was in the eyes of the pioneers. Not to lose sight of where Hapkido "supposedly" originated. It was in Japan among the Samurai families who were dying out due to the dissolution of dynastic imperialism. It seems that the general arts that were derived from these more familial arts are, to a degree, just as divided about where their base systems originated. With this in mind, the general concept would be altered from the beginning. Therefore, who really created these arts? The truth, in my eyes, is that God created the martial arts... the higher power. God gave man the power to discern. God gave us the power of combat and the power of defense. Through the ages, humans have just expanded on what the concept of martial arts was in previous generations. I find it hard to fathom that there is an argument over what real Hapkido IS when Morei Ueshiba called his system Aikido and the Kanji for that word are the exact same characters used for both arts, Hapkido and Aikido. In light of this, how can someone even say that they do the RIGHT, or more traditional, form of Hapkido, and the next guy does not... Define Hapkido/Aikido in Korean and Japanese... It boils down to the same concept: The method of using the flow of natural energy... ... When you consider this, the products are limitless... That, I think, was Choi's reasoning when he considered not teaching the same technique twice... and in light of that, I find it to be an amazing feat that anyone could have achieved a first Dan under him, let alone a 3rd, in the amount of time cited in the so called Hapkido Histories, even by today's "cookie cutter" standards... This, I think, would be an indication that Choi looked highly on many of his students, and that he pushed the "concept" of Hapkido more than the "tangible techniques." This, applied to the topic of In Sun Seo being "loose", is just a testament to the fact that he doesn't need to be "tight".. He can dole out those techniques loosely and still break your will to live. Let him grab ya and see what I mean.. I'm not knocking anyone here, and I have a fraction of the Hapkido experience that some of you have. However, these are the things that I think about when I think Hapkido... It's a concept as much as it is a martial art... It's a basis for what will come next... It can only be contributed to and improved upon by worthy practitioners, such as all of you, the people you mentioned, and GM Seo... That's what I focus on... The traditionalism is already there. No matter what they call it, it didn't just come from one source... But it's profoundly obvious in all of the arts mentioned here.
IMHO, then there must be something said for those students who stuck around with Dojunim Choi for many long years of study and achieved higher ranks directly from him-- 7th, 8th, 9th ...DJN Choi didn't give out many of these high ranks... Logic would dictate, that if his students stuck around and trained for years, they would have the opportunity to see the same technique way more than once and absorb and more clearly understand the principles behind them. IMHO, the art that DJN Choi taught was complicated and intricate. Understanding the principles and being able to apply them took time and lots of practice. According to my teacher, GM Lim, Hyun Soo (jungkikwan.com), who studied 19 years with DJN Choi--- DJN Choi stated "That when you are 40, you can get to know the primary skills." This clearly expresses the complexity and difficulty of "HAPKIDO" training. IMHO, I feel Hapkido has evolved and there are many excellent HAPKIDO teachers and practitioners out there in the world today. We all can learn from each other and modern Hapkido will continue to evolve. However, IMHO, the distinct art that DJN CHOI taught is only taught by a handful who have preserved these techniques. Naturally, there is evidence of many of these techniques in many Hapkido styles. However, IMHO, the further you move away from the long time students of Choi, the techniques have sometimes possibly been changed, possibly been misunderstood, etc. It is kind of like playing the game of telephone in a sense. Who usually knows the answer next best from the person who created the words to be passed along?... the person who was right next to the person starting the game. We preserve the core techniques taught to us by GM Lim from DJN CHOI. Our core curriculum is these basic techniques and are clearly distinguished. Even GM Lim makes distinctions when teaching certain techniques--He will say this is the original way DJN Choi taught this technique....the other ways are possible. Sure, we have all seen and view other techniques from other martial art areas outside of your own kwan that work well and which we may enjoy practicing. Of course, we can learn from all martial arts. It isn't a question of one HKD style being better or worse. There is merit in all Hapkido styles, organizations,etc. We are all always learning. The most important thing is that you are happy with your teacher and the Hapkido style or any martial art style for that matter, which you are learning. We are all entitled to our opinions. We are all different, but we are all unified by our love of learning, practicing, and in some cases teaching the martial art of Hapkido. P.S. For those of you would like to read more about GM Lim, you may visit his website at www.jungkikwan.com. There are two magazine articles/interviews with full text/photos of GM Lim from Black Belt Magazine and Tae Kwon Do Times which speak about techniques, history, etc. He will also be visiting the U.S. from Taegu City this summer for seminars. Hope to meet some of you then.
I find it very interesting that the title of this thread is "GM In Sun Seo Video's" however we continue to hear much about GM Lim from his camp. Perhaps you might start a GM Lim video Thread? Best wishes, J.B. Murphy
I respect what you have said in your statements here. However, I don't necessarily agree with the quote above. I can see how any Grand Master would definitely want to advocate his curriculum solely and would probably influence his students in regards to that. I still believe that Choi taught techniques in order to teach concepts. You are right though that over time, the same techniques would probably have to be covered over again for many different students as not all students pick up on these concepts at the same pace, and certainly there are many years to study etc.. I would like to point out as well that I feel like you are still kind of hanging on this thread of where Hapkido came from and what exactly it is etc.. To use the telephone game analogy, I would say that Lim(all respect) was not the next person in line anyway.. Choi was.. as the techniques that he taught came directly from Sokaku Takeda and the Takeda Family. I will also add that the Takeda Family, at this time, completely denies the involvement of Choi in their art. I say this very sparingly though. I'm not saying it to make anyone angry, but you have to admit the history. I'll add as well, to justify some of my previous statements, that Choi was a founding board member of Dae Han Kidohae and that GM Seo held the office of president longer than any other person in the history of that organization. I would say that this counts for something.. I mean, if that's not lineage, then I don't know what is..
Hi Zach, I believe you've misunderstood. GM Lim does not "advocate his curriculum solely". He teaches his curriculum to students who want to learn it. But, he never puts down anybody else's Hapkido. Nor does he claim that his style is the "only" true Hapkido, or anything similar. What he says about his curriculum is simply a fact. And that is that he teaches, as faithfully as he can, what Choi taught him. His desire is simply to pass on his understanding of Choi's art to future generations. I can tell you this for sure: if you go to the Jungkikwan to train, and you start to make negative comments about anybody else in the Hapkido world, you will be very poorly received. They simply do not tolerate that. I hope this makes sense... Regards.
Thanks for the reply Mr. Spivey. For the record, I would like to say that my statements were in no way intended to scrutinize GM Lim's character or his method of teaching, nor was it an attempt to invalidate his curriculum. We could all learn a great deal from him. On the contrary to what you have said, however, I would have to say that my point was to support some of my previous points... The general theme being that HKD has changed over the years, and that the general nature of modern HKD is rooted in the various GM masters adding to it and, in some cases, even taking away from it. And I think that the question here is whether or not these changes make it any more or less than what it was originally intended to be. The "advocate his curriculum solely" statement was not necessarily directed toward GM Lim. It was more of a broad statement to convey my belief that many high ranking instructors and GMs often have a more personalized curriculum, regardless of their association. This, again, would allude to the general progression of Traditional Martial Arts in general, namely HKD. Again... Thanks for the reply, and I wish you good health and good practice.
Hi Zach, first of all, please call me Howard. I didn't get the sense at all that you were trying to be critical of GM Lim. I just wanted to give a little additional background to jungkihapkido1's post (he is my teacher, btw). I agree with your general comments about the evolution of Hapkido, and that each kwan leader, consciously or not, probably puts his own stamp on what he teaches. Thanks for the good wishes, and the same to you... take care, Howard
Back to the point To get back to the topic...... Do any of you have video footage of Grand Master In Sun Seo that you would like to post a link to or tell us about? Thanks, J.B. Murphy
