Think of it as the difference between a mace and a morning star The mace delivers the impact directly The morning star follows the physical delivery, but the accumulated "kinetic energy" in the chain amplifies that motion Or as Bruce once said quite glibly
I think it's important to be able to do both. All things being equal, the mace will hit first. It's one of the enduring features of the 1-2: use the mace to set-up the counter-rotation needed for the morning star. Or, as Peter Consterdine was demonstrating, if you're going for the morning star from a "cold start" - ie. verbals, then you use misdirection and timing to hide the set-up.
Oh absolutely! It is not a "one or the other" issue - I was just pointing out the difference in mechanic
Just an observation... you are seeing the dogs coat twist and move after the dog twists. What you are observing is not the spine moving sequentially. That may be the case but there is nothing in the video that shows this to be so. The comment is speculative really. LFD
So while I find this guys stuff interesting it doesn't look that different to external stuff to me either. In fact the thing mentioned by David nailed it on the head. He is using the same movements used by Peter Consterdine who is a high ranking karateka, self protection guru and doorman. No thought of internal in their stuff, just good mechanics to produce force. Peter has been teaching this stuff forever. LFD
No, but the motion of the coat was the main demonstration, or so I thought. Although you can see the dog tense its opposing back legs in opposition to the head twists - which is a kind of doggy version of the counter-rotation we're talking about.
Various examples of "how to" for power - and again there are a LOT of similarities. Look at RJJ in the last one for pretty much a textbook "shake" as described by Erle in the first [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ04lJGLmrE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ04lJGLmrE[/ame] [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CISLY0kXQrk"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CISLY0kXQrk[/ame] [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC6vRJsBZEg"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC6vRJsBZEg[/ame] [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo04dHckAOI"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo04dHckAOI[/ame]
I think there is difference in where the axis of motion tends to reside - for Peter Consterdine its generally toward the hip, whereas with Chen Yu its more often closer to the spine, as far as I can see. But there is definite crossover in technique, to my eyes. Also, that opening of the hips to add to the elastic energy is far less pronounced in Peter Consterdine. I suppose if your practice is all about the minutiae, that kind of thing makes a world of difference.
I don't believe I ever said the spine moved sequentially. I was more trying to communicate that as the spine twists, we tend to focus on the horizontal movement this causes. This can make people think that the twisting force is a chain of events, such as the morning star delivery example in Hannibal's post. This is a fine example and can show how using more joints can increase the power. However, the vertical movement in the body can be seen as a wave that travels through the body up and down the spine. When you take the vertical movement into account (and maybe this is the compression and expansion piece), you get the battering ram element or full body power. If you look how a battering ram works. IME.
Regardless of which axes you look at, either everything rotates at the same speed and at the same time, or it doesn't.
Which is the way you think is better? Personally I fall into the "it doesn't" category. Otherwise you don't get full body power. You need opposing forces for full body power. Edit: I just realized that these opposing forces get faster and harder to see the more you internalize the power. So visibly it could look like everything is rotating at the same speed and time. The issue is, it is very hard to see what is happening on the inside.
I guess its for demo purposes, but you can clearly see him push after doing the one-inch punch (which is flawless - his hand doesn't move back at all). It would look far less dramatic if he didn't add the push though.
Neither. See posts 282 and 283. I don't think it's hard to see at all. Either the hip goes ahead of the shoulder or it doesn't. Maybe it's cheating, but you can pause YouTube videos you know!
Okay got ya I think. Hips and shoulders move together but not at the same speed or range of motion. Hips forward is also important so the hip rotation will be less than the upper body rotation but the hip rotation will be faster. By hard to see, I meant it is hard to see such movements as done at the waist. The waist can move independently of the hip and shoulders. Visibly I see hip and shoulders move, but how much of what is happening at the waist can be seen. It is almost exclusively internal.
I'm sure I must misunderstand you, because that sounds insane. Are you saying that you can rotate your waist without moving your hips or shoulders?
Yes :evil: Just kidding mostly. What I'm saying is you can use the waist (or leading with the waist) to create torque. In effect it means that you are rotating at the waist without ROTATING the hips or shoulders but the amount of rotation is very tiny. Instead of thinking it as rotation, which probably literally would cause self-injury like a hernia, it is more like the feeling of a pebble dropped in a calm pond of water. Okay, maybe I go too far using the ripple effect. The point is that it is tiny (internal) movement that starts the process, not big external movements. Edit: hips and shoulders still move when rotating waist, but they do not have to rotate. I was just practicing it and for me it is the bringing the hips back and forward (no rotation) and dropping weight that helps with this. To me this makes me think of belly dancing or hula hoops.
I would love to know which muscles can move the waist, save for a small amount of expansion/contraction without moving the shoulders or pelvis.
I edited my previous post to say without rotation, hips and shoulders still move. Example: Like using a hula hoop. Example 2: Come to think of it, it is so ingrained in some movements, it is basically part of a weight shift. But it is really weight shift + torque from waist. The latter I think is often neglected in teachings.
