I was recently lucky enough to have a car journey and private seminar with my instructor and one of his senior students, up to the English Championships. So we were talking and we got discussing the founders. And he said "Grandmaster Rhee [Ki Ha] is the real deal. Nobody I know has ever seen General Choi actually do anything other than..." And then he put his left hand up in a knifehand block and then with his right hand just grabbed it and pulled it down slightly. [Whilst driving. Lol.] "And then says that's correct." So... I searched pictures of General Choi and that was all I saw. Him making minor adjustments to people doing patterns. Now I'm not trying to slander the General here, but has anybody ever actually seen him demonstrate?
I have this video and also a cd copy of the early TKD Masters which includes Choi performing forms, drills, and self defense. I suppose you have to see it to believe it right ? I mean HE is the founder of Tae Kwon Do!
Well comsidering rhee ki ha was taught by the general speaks volumes. You must remeber tha most ppl in th euk who ar elucky enough to have attended a Gen Choi seminar must take into acount the mans age as a factor in demonstration ability.Anyone who chalenges this mans ability id like to see do it the presence of GM rhee ki ha and master paul donnely of the TAGB im sure theyd set you staright in seconds
That wasn't what I meant. I wasn't challenging his ability, and my former ITF instructor graded for his blackbelt under him. I'm sure he'd be the first to yell at me for asking the question. All I meant was, what is he actually capable of? I mean, I've seen all Rhee's videos of his insane jumps and breaks. His agility and speed was just incredible. But I've never actually heard anyone speak about General Choi doing this and that. I was reading an ITF website where people were discussing their favourite moments, and they were all the same. General Choi slapped him for his twin block being too low. General Choi touched his hand as he slightly narrowed his twin block, General Choi told him to turn his foot more in a side kick. And most of these men reminiscing are doing so back in their 1st Dan days and are now 4th and 5th Dan instructors, so it wasn't as if Choi was on his deathbed when this seminar took place. Again just to reiterate, I'm not trying to in any way imply General Choi wasn't an incredible martial artist, I just wondered if anybody had any actual footage of him training or demonstrating.
You'll have to shell out some cash on those vids/DVD's I mentioned and see Choi in his youngers years as rare footage made from old Super 8 film. Later in his life he devoted much of his time giving personal instruction through seminars which is primarily his making adjustments to students patterns..... much like what this video shows which is the very last seminar Choi conducted in Colorado in 2002 http://www.itfnz.org.nz/what/lastcourse.wmv
I remember my old kickboxing coach told me that he had a black belt seminar with Gen. Choi once. 30 minutes of the seminar was spent getting the students into walking stance. My coach described it as a disappointment.
Imagine performing your pattern in front of Choi! Talk about nerves! I doubt that I would have been able to do it... let alone having to stand there and have him correct all my mistakes! (probably would take more than 30 minutes! LOL )
I think there's something wrong with the students not the instructor if it takes them 30 minutes to get into walking stance
Isn't it nice when someone agrees with you? Even though up thread there's been plenty of evidence that the General had the skills, it's still nice when someone reinforces your opinion, no matter how ill conceived it may be. Ragnarok on this forum you seem to be a critical thinker, but you also seem to take every opinion your instructor ever had as rock solid fact. I'm just saying it might be wise to withhold final judgement until you see for yourself. Personally I have no knowledge of whether the General could do a decent flying side kick or not (as an example), but KickChick says she has seen video of the General performing in his younger days. Sounds like evidence to me. Clearly also in his later years, he didn't demonstrate, as much as correct. Why? Well that's certainly a debatable point, but one theory, mine, is that he no longer felt he could perform them up to his own standards. Aging is inevitable, and with it, for all of us, comes a diminishing physical peformance. Imagine it from his point of view. He's the founder it's his system and he wants it to be perfect. Can he trust himself to do it exactly right? Maybe not, but he can still see where others are going wrong, and correct them. That, as it turns out, was better for TKD, as instructed many that now carry on his legacy.
Gen. Choi was a 2nd dan in Shotokan karate. He researched and put together the tuls of ITF Taekwon-Do. I don't think that he was able to do many of the difficult kicks himself, he was after all a middle aged man by the time he was in his TKD research. His Masters were able to do these techniques because of their youth also nearly all of them were already trained in other styles. He encouraged many of them to join the TKD cause from other styles. He also approached Mas Oyama of Kyokoshinkai to join the TKD cause as he is Korean by birth. Mas Oyama was already an accomplished martial artist in his own right. A lot of the Masters, especially GM Rhee Ki Ha actually helped in the research, it wasn't all Gen. Choi Hong Hi. This came from GM Rhee himself. My master trained in Korea with Gen.Choi and he said all they did was patterns. Gen.Choi was a patterns man pure and simple.
Ragnarok You seem to give the impression that someone who has the ability to perform the flashier aspects of the art e.g. 540 jumping kicks, has superior Tae Kwon Do knowledge/skill thans who can't. Personally I have trained with several people who concentrate on performing the flashy techniques who have a terrible basic understanding of the pure basics of Tae Kwon-Do. Flash doesn't always mean better . If I was to attend a Gen Choi Seminar (and I wish I could have) I would prefer that he adjusted my poor technique by "just grabbing my arm and lowering slightly" and saying "that's correct." rather than performing x number of techniques for the entire session . Your there to learn after all. It seems to be backed up by KC and estranged13 of his technique and ability in the art, The fact that Grandmaster Rhee [Ki Ha] is talked in the manner he is, is hugh testiment to the abilities and qualities of the General himself
Did Choi have an understanding of the basics of Tae Kwon-Do? I get the impression that he didn't really have a clue what he was doing.
Gould I did not give that impression, you just chose to interpret it that way. I never once in my post said that anyone who could do flashier kicks was a better martial artist. I said Gen.Choi could not do the flashy kicks because of his age. He relied on his chosen students to perfect them in his stead. Has anyone ever provided photographic or cinematic proof of Gen.Choi doing a jumping reverse turning kick? The answer will usually be no. I love Taekwon-Do but I do realise that Gen.Choi was a soldier and politician first and a martial artist second. His idea of Taekwon-Do was to prove the superiority of the Korean people after years of japanese opression. He has always used it as a political tool. He went to Canada with the Olympics in mind. He wanted a universally recognised korean sport that the world would recognise. I'll say again, I love Taekwon-Do but all the great founders like Oyama, Funakoshi, Ji Han Jae to name but a few have displayed their styles to their full potential, thus proving their skill and effectiveness. Gen.Choi will usually have been seen performing and correcting patterns. The man was a genius in his accomplishments but he was no proven martial artist by ability.
I guess if you work on the assumption that he was the "founder" of Tae Kwon Do then the basics are what he wants them to be even if they don't have a solid basis to back it up. If your saying that he didn't have an advanced understanding of his Shotokan karate background when he founded TKD then I can see your point. I do think that much of what he "took" from Karate he didn't really understand initally until much later on.
Nails I totally agree with what you where saying. The post wasn't directed at you, I was trying to reply to Ragnarok's posts as I suggested by putting his name at the start of the post .
Sorry Gould I scrolled down too far, I did not see who you was directing your reply at. I inturn agree with your previous comments.
