Ganseki Nage ukemi problem

Last class I was at, we were doing variations of Ganseki Nage. After a while I started to notice that the point of my shoulder blade was digging into my back at the apex of the lock that facilitates the throw. I would normally just consider this just part of the technique, but it's crazy sore days later even. Has anyone else had this "problem"?

Edit: I asked my teacher if there was something I'm doing wrong and he said he didn't know, but then he does that sometimes when he wants me to work out something on my own.

 

Can you explain a little more? How was the person applying the technique? When did you first feel the 'lock' going on? At what point did you experience the pain you are talking about?

 

This'll be kinda tough as the version of Ganseki that my teacher does is slightly different than most versions I see, but here goes.

Uke grabs to Osode...

Tori moves Ushiro Nanami Migi...

Tori enters in almost Migi Ihen no kamae...

Tori moves Yoko Hidari and "throws the rock"

At the point that the elbow locks/is locked and begins to move me, it creates a kind of "whip effect" that my body tries to absorb by turning outward. This is when the lower point of my shoulder blade digs in to the muscle tissue underneath. I can't seem to find a decent diagram online so I'm going to say mid-back, near spine, lower trapezius(sp?).

I recently overheard my instructor describe me as a "compliant uke" so I've been trying to work at being more realistic in my uke-ing. i.e. resisting more.

 

Got a picture of the technique?

 

A couple of points then.

There's a time and a place for compliancy in the uke and one of those in when the throw is already happening. That's why we have ukemi, so we can practice the throwing dynamic without injury.

Ganseki Nage shouldn't "whip". Other than that, what you've described sounds somewhat similar to the way I've always been taught GN.

My advice is to realise that resisting any technique allows the effects of that technique to be applied. The time to resist a technique is before it is applied, otherwise you are just magnifying the damage.

 

As I understand it, I have pretty good ukemi. I suppose it's more accurate to say that I'm "playing surprise" rather than resisting. i.e. acting like I don't know the technique is coming.

Of all the videos I've seen online, I have yet to see the version my teacher does. Because of the deep entry in Ihen no Kamae, I'm almost facing away(not really but hard to describe), when the step to Yoko Hidari and rock throw comes, it mega-stresses my back.

And how!

 

Hayseed posted

Then maybe he is teaching it wrong and hense why your shoulder hurts.

 

Being the BJK I understand where your coming from, but no, he's not teaching it "wrong". He teaches the version he prefers, and IMO, it's a lot more effective than the standard Hira no Kamae version.

Like I said though, it doesn't hurt my shoulder, it's my back. And it's not joint-lock pain, it's literally the bottom tip of my shoulder blade digging into the muscle tissue beneath it. It's like the inertia is dividing the angle between where my body initially wants to escape to(directly away), and the direction the throw ends up actually sending me.

 

Sounds like it's a quite effective implementation then...

I can only imagine that the lock on your elbow and shoulder during the throw is being adjusted up very high as your moved, and tori is keeping you moving forwards, around and then down. Are you forced up onto your toes?

If you (as uke) are experiencing pain in your centre of your back then maybe either your not warmed up enough, too tense or (and just suggestions - no critisum) your instructor is just putting the technique on a bit too quick, a bit too well and your "not complying" quickly enough!

There a many different ways to implement Ganseki Nage. If you're lucky enough to have the time to get a nice strong elbow lock (musoudori) then great. Often the lock falls out (arm is bent or retracted) and you need to close and enter the uki's space and then it gets ugly.

 

Not at all, it's all done very low.

I think the 'not complying quickly enough' is a good bit of it.

This version counts on/causes the arm bending. When entering, rather than locking the elbow straight, it's lifted into the bent position and my balance is overrun to the rear, the stepping to Yoko Hidari creates the distance for the arm to straighten and the "rock throwing" motion traps the newly straightened arm between the neck area and the "throwing" arm's bicep/shoulder muscle.

P.S. I'm hesitant to be much more descriptive as my instructor isn't one for posting on the internet and I'd hate to offend him by not following his example. I just thought maybe someone here had a similar problem and was able to work through it in a way I hadn't previously thought of, but it looks like that's not going to be the case. I appreciate the replies and advice all the same though. Thanks guys!

 

Resist before the technique has been applied, not after. Resisting ganseki or it's variations at the zero point is asking for an injury, neither does it help you or your partner.

 

It's OK - instructors are allowed "to go off script".

 

Once again thanks for the replies....

Thread drift: Anybody else have any of these kinds of "oddities" they've had to work through you feel like sharing?

 

When taking the Osode grip, place your shoulderblades as close to the spine as possible (zero position) and keep a little tension in them, and enguage your core, then as they throw there wont be the whiplash effect, and if you choose to resist, the shoulder is in a much stronger position to do that.


edit - as a side comentary, much training should be about forming strong alignment in your own limbs/joints and taking advantage of poor alignment in the uke.

One way to develop this 'alignment' is through functional strength training, both bodyweight and olympic lifts are excellent for this.

 

Hey, Carl.... got a couple questions for ya. What direction is your balance being shifted to at any particular time, and is your body being "thrown" in a "forwards and up" or a "forwards and down" direction?

 

Initially far to the rear which almost feels like turning outward because my body can feel the escape, the Ganseki is taken at 90 degrees-ish from the initial.

Edit: Have a little more time to type now....

With standard Ganseki it usually feels forwards and down with a little spoon full of 'off kilter'. With this version it's pretty low to the ground so it's more outward with the 'off kilter' dialed up and maybe a dash of dangercloserollohmygod.

BTW are you going to the Sveneric seminar up in Laramie? If so I may see you.

 

If done correctly, you should not be able to take ukemi for ganseki nage.

 

Which would make it very hard to practise more then once on any Uke.

Were obviously talking about the throwing in training version here.

 

Jus' sayin' bro.

 

is there a difference between left and right side? it might be due to some kind of unconscious tension or structural misalignment.......i know i've got those problems.....


i'd say try to practice ukemi as a way to escape from that portion of the technique (i.e. the pain).