Everything was good when I was learning to do forward rolls from the kneeling position with one of the higher grade students. No problems, no pain. Anyway, a few days later, I was put with another higher grade student, who decided to have me do some forward rolls from a semi kneeling position, one knee raised. I couldn't understand him very well because he didn't speak english very well. The first time I rolled this way, it felt like my fat belly was smashing down on my rib cage as I rolled over... Nothing crunched or cracked, but my zyphoid thingy at the bottom of my sternum is sore. Anybody heard of this happening to anyone else? Just curious. I know it will probabely take a while for the soreness to go away. Thanks, Kevin
Hi Kevin, I've never come across this situation before and I'm perplexed how you've managed to suffer this injury. Looking at how one's body moves during ukemi (even for those new to the discipline like your good self) I cant see how your own knee could cause this injury, quite frankly I think it's impossible. If you consider what parts of your own body are in contact with the ground during the stages of a front breakfall, there is actually only one of your knees that makes any form of contact and that's at the conclusion of the roll when your regaining your posture and in a semi-kneeling position. This knee is below you. Without seeing how competent you are at mae ukemi I cant really give a definitive answer to your question but, I would offer an educated guess. 1) If you performed the breakfall by your self. IE your training partner wasn't doing a technique with you at the time, the only logical part of your own body that could have caused this injury would be either of your hands, and only then if the breakfall you did fell apart as you rolled and somehow landed with a hand/fist positioned just below your sternum. This is of course highly unlikely because our hands are just about always 'leading' the rest of one's body, especially during our early experiences with ukemi 2) If your training partner was actually performing a technique on you whilst you performed this 'newer' form of forward breakfall, I'd suggest part of his body came in to contact with you, although I have to admit without more information from you, I'm at a loss to explain where and what. Kind regards Dave Humm
Semi-kneeling, front knee raised? I think you maybe need to be using the legs to push up and off more as it sounds like you just collapsed onto that front knee. What was you leading arm doing -was it forming a path for you to follow?
when we teach new students a basic forward shoulder roll we try and stress the idea of swimming through the roll. We also stress the idea of bringing hara over the top of the roll, not the head or feet. these are the most common mistakes. Kevin; I am not at all trying to be rude, but as you say you have a fat belly it is quite possible that you literally pinched your upper abdomanal section between you chest and paunch... If you don't try so hard to be tight and allow yourself to be more relaxed during the ukemi i think it will help. more than anything just keep trying and remember that EVERYONE starts somewhere. Peace to you Aaron
Sorry mate. We all get some bumps and bruises on the way. Don't worry too much though, you will pick up on the rolls relatively quickly. Just take your time.
Could you have hit it with your knee? Nope. Without seeing how competent you are at mae ukemi... I'm not really. This happened during my 4th or 5th class. Semi-kneeling, front knee raised? Yup. It's the way this other guy was showing me how to roll. But when the first guy was showing me, we did it together. Basically, from a kneeling position, unbendable arm reaching across past oposite knee, lifting up with feet and rolling across shoulders. Just a basic first time roll is all it was. We also stress the idea of bringing hara over the top of the roll, not the head or feet. these are the most common mistakes. To be quite honest with you, I'm still pretty new, so I really don't know what you are referring to here. Kevin; I am not at all trying to be rude, but as you say you have a fat belly it is quite possible that you literally pinched your upper abdomanal section between you chest and paunch... If you don't try so hard to be tight and allow yourself to be more relaxed during the ukemi i think it will help. Hey, don't worry about it. I know how I look...I'm the one who described myself...hehe. I wear a size 6 Gi and it's not exactly loose on top. Not real tight though. Actually I think the reason you give is what happened. Don't worry too much though, you will pick up on the rolls relatively quickly. One of the guys in class said I had 20 years to learn to roll.... I guess I just need to get into the Ukemi class. We only have one a week that I can get into. Thanks, Kevin
I will add to this thread by saying that ukemi as a skill, is by far THE SINGLE most important skill you should learn. And learn it to a very high standard. Not only from a self preservation perspective. But far more importantly from a development stance, development of oneself and that of your fellow students. I've seen many a 'good' aikidoist, skills in technique that are quite good however, they really haven't grasped the basic understanding of ukemi, thusly, they don't contribute particularly well to the development of others. Ukemi isn't just about breakfalls, indeed receiving a technique may well require you the take a breakfall however, it is the "receiving" which is far more important for the development of yourself and others. As an instructor, I can teach the skills involved in ukemi - the physical rolls and overheads required from various techniques however, what is very much harder to teach, is the attitude of co-operation without over compliance. In one's early development, a junior kyu grade will almost always be ultra compliant, and rightly so. As one's training and skills develop so should one's skills in ukemi. If one area of your training is out of sync with the other, you find yourself in a situation where you wish to perfom increasingly more dynamic technique, whilst being less able to take the breakfalls from others who likewise wish to train as you do. Ukemi isn't particularly easy (in my opinion) yet we must be highly skilled in what I personally consider a discipline in its own right. Good luck to you fella and enjoy !! Kind regards Dave
All I want to say is,you can attend as many ukemi classes as you want,but if you just practice your ukemi in class,it will take a while to gain proficiency, Do you have a couple comforters or blankets laying around? If so, spread 'em out on the floor and commence to rollin'. Any surface that is a little forgiving would do as well. That's how I did it,class just was not enough for me to "get good". Just remember to keep your "unbendable arm" strong, and whatever you do,try to keep it from collapsing,think "round"! You'll get there!
Ukemi (receving through the body) is a state of mind. As you drop to the ground the decision has already been made whether you will stand back up, or if you will lie down. Make no mistake, in real life if you get back up after being put down you are making a serious statement to the person who put you down. That is a part of ukemi. And the ability to do (or 'take') ukemi only comes through hard practice....it builds natural reflex as fast as a cat, time-motion-mass-relationship calculation beyond anything ever seen...a kick in the balls dealt with by a twisting stumble...a headbutt dealt with by falling backwards onto a concrete wall. Whether you show off and do a nice roll or whether you seem clumsy and bump into a door or a stranger...ukemi is a form of physics that should never be misunderstood as merely 'self-preservation'. Ukemi is an aspect of martial arts designed to allow us to 'attack' again. We absorb and return. Of course there is more to it than that...I just like ukemi.
Just curious,why would "doing a nice roll" be showing off? It's just one tool in the toolbox,so to speak. In the Dojo, the forward roll is one of the most used forms of ukemi,before breakfalls,no? If you want to get into the uses for Ukemi,that deserves a thread of it's own! For clarity's sake,I just wanted to say I think it is an interesting choice of words,not to argue.
I've never seen anybody get so pasionate over ukemis. Not even me. And I spend alot of time on my ukemis. They absolutley must be perfect. On the other hand, it's not what a beginer needs to hear. Hi Kevin. Rolling is something most beginers have problems with. To be honest I would forget the "one knee raised" method. It's pants. Start as you already have from a full kneeling position then move to a crouched position and then to full standing. And always remember your ukemi doesn't start until your finger tips almost touch the ground. Here's a link to a step-by-step guide to a forward ukemi I did for another thread. Help with ukemis
Thanks for the link aikiwolfie. About the "one knee raised" method, what does "It's Pants" mean? Thanks again. Kevin
Kevin, trust me when I say alot of us found ukemi extreamly frustrating. How can something so basic and fundamental be so difficult, it drove me nuts for a few weeks. Stick with it and one day it will click. Sorry about the injury. I dont mean to derail the thread but I have to ask. I see you all refrence the outstretched arm as an 'unbedable arm'. I've always been taught to bend the arm slightly and use it like a shock as you make contact with the ground. [Edit] n/m, I read the ukemi how to and it says the same thing. 'Unbendable arm is a bit of a misnomer [/Edit] Oh, and how do you prevent the ocasional wedgie after a roll
"It's pants", means it's usless. I was assuming the one raised knee is on the side you are rolling. If you watch others perform ukemi from standing there knee is well out of the way as they make the ukemi. I have no idea as to why anybody uses that method to teach beginers. It's one of Aikidos many unsolved mysteries I guess. Preventing a wedgie? Buy a gi with trousers that fit properly. I've never actually encountered that problem before. Sorry.
injury I have had a similar injury to that from doing the forward roll from a standing position, after a while I seemed to get it, but the problem for me was not getting my body "round" enough or when I would start the roll just go straight down onto the shoulder then roll off of it, kind of like pile driving your shoulder into the ground. I too am a large fellow, give it time it will come. What dave said about proper Ukemi is very important to the development of your own aikido practice as well as the other students and even your sensei. Thats my my sensei stresses the importance and spends particular detail to the ukemi and tries to get us to improve it tremendously, and it works. Take care, good luck with the rolling.
My Sensei actually said to stay away from that method also. It's just what this one guy was trying to show me and apparently it didn't work. As for the wedgie's? I would think that a forward roll would tend to make your pants come down... Kevin
