Sorry not to have followed up sooner... Tosh: about the definition of öfficiating", you assume correctly... we had different ideas. I agree completely with your follow up post on timekeepers, etc. (nice post by the way) Mountain Sage: A couple of things: (1) About the win-lose mentality... as instructors I feel that we learn more about our students when they lose. It's a very sobering issue and usually gears them up to genuinely take nore of what they need to work on. Also, we get to see if they will quit after a loss, or work harder. A win lets us see how gracious they are in victory and see if they realize that they also must learn from the little mistakes they made, as well as those made by the opponents. (2) About requiring competition: we strongly recommend it. If a person really did not want to compete, we would try to find some way that would give that person a similar perspective or experience. We do not make it mandatory, but we do feel it is something that every TKD artist should experience. Could there be an alternative assessment... yes, and I would work it out individually with the student. (3) Intensity level in the dojang and at a competition... I would love to say they should be the same. I try to do the same whetehr it is for class, test or competition. The biggest difference at a tournament is the unfamiliar faces, judges, guests, and instructors. Also many people are competing for a win and a person may feel a bit of pressure to look good for themself or for their school. To me, this is why a competition is a good experience. My first competition was as a yellow belt at the New York State senior championships. I was sent alone, without coach or instructor. I fought hard and lost in the sparring but placed 3rd in forms. The intensity level was amazing and the experience immense. The master was testing to see how I would handle it... from the distance to the compeition to the unfamiliarity to the potential loss. I came back stronger and surer of myself. One full day of competition taught me (and provided assessment fuel for my master) more than several days in the dojang. But, this is my own personal experience. Good training Pooploops: About 'master'... I use the term master even though it's not required. He does not own me but he does provide guidance, friendship, support and etc. He also exemplifies the essence of a martial artist (in my opinion) and his dedication to the martial arts ethics and high level of personal skill and instructor ability do merit the title "master"in my opinion... and it is not a term I use 'lightly'. If you have never trained with someone worthy of loyalty and devotion (and the affectionate title 'master'), I feel sorry for you and hope that you will encounter a person like this in your MA career
Philosophy I'll make my comments to everyone because it seems we are all generally in agreement, our differences seem to be in intensity of similar issues. I never believed that WTF had a corner on forms altering for competition. It's competiton that changes the forms. As I read the responese, one though eat at me, are we talking about a teenager or an adult when discussing the details of the importance of competition. It appears to me that your responses are of a general nature, where as, my comment are more specific to an adults. All have made some very good comments and I'm still working on getting my brain around some of the thoughts. Losing is a sobering issue only to those who believe that losing is not an option. Again, any positive or negative trait that are shown in competition are shown many time prior in the dojang, a competition isn't necessary to demonstrate positive reaction to negative situations. As far as the being in a different place with different people thing, I can only speak for myself in that my past experiance as an athlete and politican has trained the ability to ignore distractions and situations. What usually gets me is self doubt of my ability, a me vs. myself situation or a sudden burst of ego gets in the way. Mountainsage
In response to the question of altering forms for competition...yes it is done all the time. Having gone to the U.S. Open, Adult Nationals and Junior Olympics for quite some time as well as a coach and certified USTU Referee(class B) altering forms is done all the time..referees are taught to look for certain techniques during the Referee seminars and any diviation of the form will result in deduction of points (though it's all subjective anyway) an example....Koryo, the judges are taught that the initial double side kick move ...they are told to look for a quick first snap then a quick side kick to the midsection..now, I have had many discussions about this issue,including with a senior Master under Y.H. Park(former USTU V.Pres.,former Olympic coach, authored book on TKD)who was so adament about this issue and refused to 'change' the form for competition...his students were all penalized ...
Re: Philosophy Yes, I am giving general advice that I would give to ANY student of ANY age. The experience of competition is possibly more important to someone with less all-around experience but it also applies to anyone. I respect your backgound, but with no disrespect intended, if I were your instructor here is what I would say SPECIFICALLY (please don't be offended): (1) You seem to think that your experience in other areas gives you the equivilent experience in TKD. I agree that it helps, but in the end, experience in politics, work and athletics does NOT equal experience in your martial art of choice. (2) Your stubborn refusal to participate in a tournament in your style of martial art, of which you may be instructing someday (or at leats be a role model in by wearing a black belt) indicates to me that you may be unsure of your abilities, afraid to compete, or too confident in your abilites (arrogance). In any of these cases, I would be reluctant to promote you without having seen you in these situations... which are important ways to test your behavior and abilities in TKD outside of our own studio. (3) If you have any ideas for an alternative assessment, let me know and I will think about it. Mountainsage: I wrote this as I would address one of my students in a similar situation and according to the philosophy of my dojang. Please do not take it as a personal attack.
no Insult I can't be offended. I learned a long time ago opinion and believes are like hindends, everyone has one and is intitled to express them when asked. If I didn't want your opinion, I should have kept my mouth shut. It is good to recieve opinion from other teachers in my art, it would be better to train with them to, yet I have the poor farmer thing to deal with. As to #1, sparring in a martial sport does not equate to making a person a better martial artist, just a better sport sparrer. I believe it depends on the individual. Stressing the body and mind is the same no matter the if it is speaking to a large crowd of people or sparring in competition, the mind and body only recognize the stress, not the situation. #2, Yes stubbornness, which has served me well for many years throught many trial and tribulations. If sport sparring is the measure of a black belt, then TKD is truly in it's final stages of death as an martial art. Think about if TKD had never been an olympic sport, would sport sparring be as much of a holy grail as it is now. I am curious about how you define a role model in martial arts, if sport sparring is that much of a condition of a role model, might I suggest reassesment of your personal definition.I am none of the options that you provide, yet I am a combination of all. I am a large man, (6'2", 290lbs), with little speed. My natural skill are opposite to those necessary to compete in sport sparring and I do refuse to go into a situation that I am on the losing end before I get there. I would say I am a realist about my situation as it applies to sport sparring. Forms competition I have no excuse for other than I a see no point in traveling six hours to spend three plus minutes doing a form to travel six hours home. Again, if sport sparring is such a large portion for promotion, then TKD will remain the butt of MA joke. I've met a few very skilled sparrers that were very poor MA. Please do not confuse arrogants with confidence, arrogants is what most sport sparring promotes, confidence is what we are training for in the MA. I believe that if we had the opportunity to train together, your base opinion would change. Fingers are getting tired, so I'll quit there for now. Mountainsage
"As to #1, sparring in a martial sport does not equate to making a person a better martial artist, just a better sport sparrer. I believe it depends on the individual. Stressing the body and mind is the same no matter the if it is speaking to a large crowd of people or sparring in competition, the mind and body only recognize the stress, not the situation." * Sparring is the practical application of what you are learning. Tournament sparring is very restricted, mainly for purposes of standardized evaluation and for safety. Sparring in the dojang should entail a wide variety of skills and rules including tournament rules-style and including "no-rules"style. In my opinion, training in the martial arts without sparring is like learning to drive from a video without actually doing it. " #2, Yes stubbornness, which has served me well for many years throught many trial and tribulations. If sport sparring is the measure of a black belt, then TKD is truly in it's final stages of death as an martial art. Think about if TKD had never been an olympic sport, would sport sparring be as much of a holy grail as it is now. " * I never said that sparring (let alone sport sparring) is the measure of a black belt. Sparring is one of the ways that we as instructors can evaluate how a student would behave in an actual self defence situation. It does not 100% replicate a real encounter but it is much closer than public speaking is. Black belts can look good, do forms well and so on, but id they CAN'T fight... they shouldn't be a black belt. Sparring is how we test fighting ability. Confidence and experience form sources other than practcing fighting may help your confidence and self-esteem but they do NOT magically make you a better fighter. Fighting practice should. "I am curious about how you define a role model in martial arts, if sport sparring is that much of a condition of a role model, might I suggest reassesment of your personal definition.I am none of the options that you provide, yet I am a combination of all. I am a large man, (6'2", 290lbs), with little speed. My natural skill are opposite to those necessary to compete in sport sparring and I do refuse to go into a situation that I am on the losing end before I get there. I would say I am a realist about my situation as it applies to sport sparring." *Role models. Wearing a black belt in a TKD school means that you have reached a certain level of ability. Junior students look up to you for help and guidance, and many black belts become instructors. A TKD black belt that cannot fight will probably not be looked up to in class and because of this, the words of wisdom they may impart may fall upon deaf ears. *It's funny that you mention your size. I am a big guy as well (see photo section)... 5'9"and 260 lbs. I have trained my body through sparring and martial arts to increase my speed and abilities. I fight to my strengths, tournament rules or not. To avoid sparring because you're not good at it means you'll never be good at it. One usually loses many times before winning.. if the challenge is adequate. "Forms competition I have no excuse for other than I a see no point in traveling six hours to spend three plus minutes doing a form to travel six hours home. Again, if sport sparring is such a large portion for promotion, then TKD will remain the butt of MA joke. I've met a few very skilled sparrers that were very poor MA. Please do not confuse arrogants with confidence, arrogants is what most sport sparring promotes, confidence is what we are training for in the MA. I believe that if we had the opportunity to train together, your base opinion would change. Fingers are getting tired, so I'll quit there for now." * My base opinion is that all elements of TKD, from forms to sparing to self defence to the 5 tenets are all key components. I personally do not like sport sparring but I do it for several reasons, namely because it is required in TKD, it practices techniques against an unwilling opponent, it tests the bravery,resolve and humility of an artist, and it's the only practical way to test fighting skills. Also, as an instructor in TKD, many of my students WANT to learn sport sparring... which has been one of the main reasons TKD has spread as a martial art. I must teach it... therefore I must be good at it. It would be selfish for me to say "I don't like (forms/sparring/etc) so I don't do it."As and instructor I do not have that option. The opinions and advice I have offered is that which I would offer to a student in my own school. Do not take it as a personal attack, but if it lets you look differently at an issue, good. If you were my student and this issue came up, I would be worried about your confidence in your skills and in your skills as a fighter. If you refused to go to a tournament, I would probably choose a night and put you in action (sparring) against some fast senior students... maybe even two on one and see how you fared. Ideally i would be looking to see how you handle the inevitable fatigue, stress and roughing up.. because eventually you would wear down and get roughed up (I would rotate your opponents). Only under this kind of stress could I evaluate your performance in a stressful situation where you'd have to use your skills to defend yourself. If you quit, gave up, or refused, I would not promote you... mainly because that is not the kind of black belt I would want in my school. I want someone who works hard, fights hard, and doesn't give up. Good training
This needs to be in a separate post: Something to keep in mind, Mountainsage, is that your opposition to sport sparring and desire (I presume) to focus on the more practical side may be one of the reasons your master wants you to compete... to see how you handle undesirable aspects of your art. For a person of such strong convictions, you would probably make a great black belt and someday instructor, bringing a word of realism and balance to a sport mentality. You should consider that if you fullfill the responsibilites necessary to becoame a black belt, you will someday be able to pass on your own impressions/attitudes/philosphy of martial arts.
I can't speak to the masters reason for requiring sport sparring because I don't speak to him that often. He's in California and the school I am a part of is in Oregon. Rank doesn't impress me that much anyway. Remember we are the art of baby blackbelts. A point of information that might have been missed earlier in the conversation is that I do spar in my school on a regular basis. In fact I am moving very little today because of sparring last night in my red belt test. Kick a classmates elbow with a roundhouse, has him lined up and was going to kick him through the closest wall and hit his elbow because I didn't get my hip turn over enough. I need a uniform pants change after that trick. It is evident we have different visions of TKD from our discussions. I can accept that, difference makes the world interesting. I know that change will not occur if people don't stand their ground on their beliefs. I am a master at tilting at windmills and championing lost causes. I hope this discussion has given you a good basis to understand that one individual that may come along with a similar strong belief. I remember a quote from a movie, don't even remember the name, that went "Doctor and lawyers we have a plenty, what we need is a few more dreamers." Mountainsage
A thought I was contenplating your though about sparring being an area were juniors look to senior as a measure of ability and acomplishment. It is far more important as senior to show up. Junior are impressed with sparring, but the they notice more when senior aren't in attendance or working hard. We have a couple of BB that are injured on a regular basis and don't show up to teach or just show that it is important to be there. I find this a very poor example. Other than family obligations and my death, I can't find a reason not to be at the hall. You can train anybody to spar, sport or otherwise, but you can't teach the ability to show up. Mountainsage
Remember we are the art of baby blackbelts. Not in all schools and not in mine. I hope this discussion has given you a good basis to understand that one individual that may come along with a similar strong belief. I remember a quote from a movie, don't even remember the name, that went "Doctor and lawyers we have a plenty, what we need is a few more dreamers." I think if you re-read my posts, you will see that I advocate looking at the sitaution and looking for alternative means to resolve the problem. I think at this point, now that you've gotten some feedback from people in the same art, under different masters, it is probably time to make one of several choices: (1) Swallow your pride and do a couple of tournaments so that you can be promoted IN ORDER TO be able to pass on your strong beliefs to future students as an instructor down the road. (2) Stick with your principles and refuse to grade for 1st dan. There is nothingf wrong with being a red belt and not dan grade. The only downside here is that you may miss out on opportunities that are open to black belts (teaching, seminars, black-belt classes, etc.) (3) Quit (although from what I know about you, this isn't an option) NO MATTER what you choose, before making your decision, I would strongly recommend taking these concerns and issues to your instructor and master as soon as you can.My advice only comes from my own philosophy and school... which has no bearing on yours... but your master's does. Please update us on your decisions... I wish you the best and really hope that something can be worked out for your promotion to 1st dan. Your more conservative style and beliefs about TKD are those that I personally believe should be taught... and to be taught, we need black belts who think like that. (P.S. Your post about sparring and black belts not participating is a good one. I agree with you... good post)
Has run it course Well Thomas, I think we've beat this dead horse well enough. It has been a pleasure to discuss this issue with you. You have been the only person to show much interest. You are correct that #3 ins't an option, #1 is always a doable, yet not acceptable to me, #2 I've been considering for sometime and have concluded that I will probably chose that one. There's a quote by (I think) Royce Gracie, "A belt only covers 2 inches of your butt, the rest is your responsiblity." Having a black belt will not change that fact. Country singer Aaron Tippen has a line from a song that goes,"If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything." Mountainsage
I think it is admirable that you stick to your philosophy and ideals. I would imagine that somewhere down the road, you will wear a black belt... whether through this school or through another... whether in TKD or another. I was due to test from my TKD black belt when I received the offer to go to Korea. I went and while there fell into Hapkido, essentially putting off my Taekwondo testing for about 3 years. Eventually I did return to TKD and dan up (currently holding a 3rd dan rank). The rank itself has no meaning, aside from that which your master, youself, and your school assigns it. Its practicla meaning comes about sometimes when applying to seminars or for attending "black belt or advanced" classes. The main importance (in my opinion) in TKD is this is when students begin to be groomed as instructors in the hopes that their unique knowledge will be spread later to new students. I have known many people who reached senior red belt and then put off 1st dan for several years... the experience makes them stronger... AS LONG AS THEY STAY WITH IT. Most of them eventually earned their black belt. I wish you the best, especially in training and I hope that you will go far in the martial arts, whatever route you choose.
