Below you say that you "only" use it for toughening, the in ()'s you say you use it for more, contradicting yourself. Then again above you state "For me.. its always been a conditioning tool.. no more, no less.", contradicting your ()'s claim.
Sound like you have a pretty good grasp of it. I will add I don't think makiwara practice had much to do with theory. Breaking back then was a test of their makiwara use. Today's example of application, from my point of view is not breaking, the few of my fighters that favor use of the makiwara have developed a really devastating straight punch. They feel this result comes mainly from the makiwara use.
This could be why conditioning is overrated. I guess it was a issue centuries ago. To me, it is the same with breaking. Both are not necessary in today's modern combat
too true. it's classified among supplementary exercises for a reason, although many people are addicted to it. it's not a beginner's tool either, so you should be learning to fight WAY before you even get near one. and i'll readily admit that karate dojos too often don't really train you well for that purpose.
I would disagree with you on breaking. Leaving aside the board holder height generally favours the taller TKDer in an exam the rebreakable board is a good test of technical accuracy. In my experience the board would break fairly easily only if you hit it exactly on the line where it folds, and for the shorter lighter students like me, would not break if you hit the board anywhere else
c I personally think that conditioning (toughening the hands/feet) is a waste of time, like you said, especially when they are not focused on the actual punch, and to punch well, and to punch well in an actual fight. Sounds like a lot of experience. I was more interested in what you feel a good training method for developing excellent punching skills would be. (Let's steer away from the makiwara, if you like, I think we have addressed that) Also, since you fight pro, I'd enjoy watching some of your fight video. I will add more detail. What I was explaining was in reference to how the makiwara gives plyometric benefit is not related to voluntary arm retraction. After the eccentric phase of the punch (extension of the muscles), the initial resistance and final spring back (the spring back overloading the fast twitch muscle fiber) that occurs during and at the end of the punch penetration phase, causes an involuntary concentric contraction (explosive shortening of the muscles), similar as to when you spring up in the air, come down, and then bounce back up in a springing motion. I learned from some pro boxers to do exactly as you recommend, a rapid, slightly penetrating sequence of punches (making them plyometric). But I also learned from them to insert occasional deep penetrating punch, mixing them in with the rapid closer to the surface punches. Of course, this is using a water bag. Stuff bag drilling might be different. I understand where you are coming from. It does suck when you don't have experience with something, and then in the middle of you telling some jerk with experience how you think it works he has the audacity to say to you, "you don't know what you are talking about", then he turns into an even bigger jerk and tries to explain it to you. Man that does suck. I bet that sounded like crap to you. What was I thinking. I'm sure, even though you have little or no experience with the makiwara, you know what you are talking about when it comes to the makiwara, maybe more so that I. Many apologies.
No problem, but TBH I would never have guessed as you seemed to quote (and indicated as such) that you were quoting him directly from his book, hence why I felt it proper to make his words clear (whether we agree with them or not). You referenced the pre-ency's btw - I have (and quoted from) the 1965 version - the first book on TKD (in English). Well from his words, and the pictures (and Mas Oyama's as you mentioned him), it would seem to me (I would think, not know) that toughening was the primary purpose and the rest, added benefits. Perhaps because it does the toughening job well, better than other things, where-as the additional benefits can be found elseware and often better! Maybe I read more into this 'water bag' thing than you intended, but it seemed you made a comparisom to the makiwara, as it they exsisted at the same time - no biggie, but one is a modern invention right and the other, ages old... but what I dont get is why you feel a water bag trumps a makiwara, but a makiwara trumps a normal heavy bag. I hit a water filled heavy bag quite a few years back at a friends school and TBH.. I thought it was rubbish (compared to a decent heavy bag - my favorite training aid).. guess I`m just not at that level yet! You are splitting hairs me thinks. One cannot hit a makiwara constantly without good wrist alignment, and in the process of conditioning, it forges that even better - it was not my primary purpose - and that was all I meant (meaning it was all about the toughening of the striking tools) and the wrist alignment etc. was a additional benefit, as it proved they were aligned or else I would have hurt my wrist etc. I don't. Though I changed my opinion on it over the years as well. Once (15 years ago) I was pretty hardcore on conditioning.. but I eased off it due to learning about the damage it can do (in later years) if taken to excess.. but i still do some and it often pays off. When i clash shins with fellow TKD'ers, I come out on top.. same with blocking and other tools I`ve hardened over the years (although they are not like they were back then TBH). Stuart
[/quote] I disagree. Heres a story for you. Karate Black belt was visiting his parents when he heard a car alarm go off.. it was his. He ran outside and saw a guy breaking into his car. He chased the guy down the street and caught him. He grabbed him by the back of his clothing and punched him in the back of the head. The guy went down. Police were called.. all would seem sweet... except the (karate) guy broke his hand in multiple places.... ... as he never did ANY conditioning! Imagine if it was a different situation, a front facing oppoenent who tipped his head and got cracked on a hard part of the skull etc. One p##s##f attacker and one defender with a now broken hand!!! Also, there was a story of a boxer who lost it in the street (may have been Herbie Hide.. though I`m not sure now), and the video shows him throwing wild punches (not really like you`d expect a boxer to perform) and it was reported 9if I recall) that he too, broke his hand. To me, theres benefit in (some) conditioning (we do it in my school), just that its not needed to excess as it may have seemed to be in the 70's and 80's. Stuart
There is the GREAT FLAW Just because your hand is conditioned, per its physics, it will still break against a more withstanding object. Conditioning will never be the end all of injury refrainment. What if the Karateka didn't clench his fist correct? Per bad execution. All of the conditioning in the world will never compensate for bad technique Good thing the Karateka hadn't had his hand conditioned because if he had and broke this guy's skull, he would be in a legal world of hurt. The end never justifies the means AND to add, said boxer or Karateka, should have had better training to hit with more accuracy To me, theres benefit in (some) conditioning (we do it in my school), just that its not needed to excess as it may have seemed to be in the 70's and 80's. I can slightly agree to this . .
:topic: All I meant was breaking isn't excluded, and it isn't in TKD gradings, along with patterns (which I'll know you'll say are pointless), basic technique, applied technique and free fighting. The alternative argument is that if you cannot accurate hit a static target with force how are you going to do when confronted with a moving target, and possibly why a lot of people revert to two or three techniques from a list of dozens, hundreds.
This is a good rebuttal. However, it does hold well because other striking arts do not do breaks, yet achieve the same thing And, the best techniques are the comfortable proven few, not the hundreds which many are lost "at the moment of truth"
In TKD though as you advance in grade you are expected to demonstrate more technically difficult techniques, mainly kicks (I know this post is about striking posts and I've only ever hit one with my hands). You'd have no argument from me as to how practical some of these advanced techniques are from a SD or free fighting perspective but they are a part of the art and possibly what attracts some to take up TKD in the first place (as it did me).
This makes sense. Because this thread is about a "forging Post, or similar apparatus, I could agree that some conditioning could be useful-to a degree. That said, I think more time and/or emphasis should be placed upon proper or refining true methods. Breaking, high kicking, etc., are for the entertainment or alluring value, never to be thought of has exceptional defense
yeah but its setting the bar rather low isn't it? honestly, breaking seams to me to be more of an ego trip for this involved. "HIIIIIIIIIIYAAAAAAAHHH!!!! look how tough I am, I just split a piece of wood along the grain." Breaking is more about appearing to be hard as nails than anything else - it's why it's the single most common part of the average karate/tkd demo. After all, the technique used for breaking is different from that used to actually punch someone and has no direct benefits to the kind of punch need to actually punch someone that you can't find better in another training method. so why do it? I understand what you're saying re. accuracy and even the best boxers started out with, and still do, use the heavy bag which doesn't move very much. However, when using something like that you're still being taught to move and create angles, to keep your guard up and maintain your footwork, and more importantly, you're getting taught the specific technique needed to punch some blighter in the face.
Sure.. if we are looking for a perfect feat, you could say that, but on the spur of the moment, things are rarely perfect. Well, isnt that (part) of the point of conditioning - it make it the harder of the two objects ie. bone to bone! Sure... that could have been the case... or it may not of been.. similarly, it could have been the case that if he had done some conditioning, his hand would have been fine. Well, one shouldnt think about such things in the heat of battle! He caught and KO`d a criminal (from behind).. pretty good sum to me! I would hazard a guess that hitting a target moving away from you at speed is pretty hard. Good. As i agree in somepart with many of the posts here. Is conditioning essential - no Can it be useful - yes Plus... maybe its just me, but I find it an enjoyable part of MA training, and, as this is a TKD forum, its useful for grading/comp breaks as well (as harukoraharu pointed out). Stuart
