For the Sake of Clarification

Discussion in 'Jeet Kune Do' started by Vajrayana, Mar 27, 2012.

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  1. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Sure, you drop a iron anvil on them. :)

    Serious, grapplers have to get dirty, they are on the ground already....:evil:
  2. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    There are two basic positions found in JKD. You're seeing a bit of an argument of them here.

    The "Original" JKD group, or OJKD, is of the mind that JKD is only what Lee taught in his lifetime. They generally feel that introducing methods from other martial arts- Muay Thai, Filipino martial arts, various grappling systems- is not JKD, because Lee didn't teach it in his lifetime.

    The JKD "Concepts" group, or JKDC, believes that JKD is not so much a "martial art" as an idea that can be applied to anyone's personal journey, as long as the core concepts of directness, simplicity, adaptation, etc. are followed. They generally view JKD as something alive and growing, and very individual, and that it was bigger than Lee himself.

    There are a few tweeks on these views in some sub-groups ("non-classical kung fu", "functional JKD", etc), but these are generally the two views you're likely to encounter.

    If you decide to seek out a JKD instructor, an OJKD instructor is going to have a different syllabus and outlook than a JKDC instructor.

    While I have my own views on what JKD is, I'm not going to tell someone else what they should believe about it. It's a personal decission based on the evidence they've been exposed to, and what their own heart and mind tells them.

    With all that said, yes, if you don't know how to grapple, you're probably going to lose against a grappler. I've been poked in the eyes, kneed in the groin, head butted, and even bitten while grappling (most of which was accidental, but not all), and it's never stopped me from beating someone with inferrior grappling skills. Usually I'm about halfway finished with an arm bar by the time the guy asks if I'm OK (about the eye poke).
  3. Mharewood

    Mharewood Valued Member

    Unfortunately this is a big missunderstanding. Many only teach what bruce taught in his life time but there is no personalisation, creativity and selectivilty about the nuts & bolts that put what they teach together.

    I don't consider them OJKD! But C0nC3pt5 groups who only teach Bruces original material LOL! A group that truly reflects the above traits though not only shows better results, they realise there not only is no need to train other arts to learn to fight! it can actually be counter productive before you get several years of hard OJKD training behind you.
  4. Mharewood

    Mharewood Valued Member

    I did exactly that because I wanted to see the holes in no Gi BJJ / Catch Wrestling for myself...and yes I found many. I got realy into it though and startd to love the workout I got from doing it. Trouble is after a few months I noticed my anti-grappling skills deteriorated. I started to over complicate things that could be done more simply. I was shown useful things too, but nothing that wasn't intuitively learned from anti-grappling. Just telling you my experience ....sorry if you don't like it.
  5. Oddsbodskins

    Oddsbodskins Troll hunter 2nd Class

    There was a program on the telly last year, one of those reality things, bunch of boxers trying to learn ballet and ballet dancers trying to learn boxing. The boxers were appalling, on the whole, but the ballet dancers were bloody good.
  6. Mharewood

    Mharewood Valued Member

    Wrestling is Grappling and many things cross over in BJJ and Judo & Sambo, but that is the whole point many elements are universal in grappling. If I am a novice at it I'd be a fool to use it in combat against an expert grappler. and if I am an expert at it ask yourself what would give me an edge over another expert equally skilled grappler? My points have been taken out of context here cos I've annoyed many who love to roll. I like it too! But from a combat perspective its not what its hyped up to be. There are much more direct ways someone who wants to learn to fight can spend their valuable time on.
  7. Mharewood

    Mharewood Valued Member

    LOL That's it mate! If you want attributes in a particular skill then you need to spend your time working on doing that particular thing and devising a training program that makes you better at that. So if I want to learn how to fight efficiently without Clashing or tanggling up my focus should be that and what I train to gain attributes in it should mimc that only.
    That is the Only "C0NC3PT" I need to know about JKD. Howard Williams Just Passed away and May his sould Rest in Peace. But he would have told you bruce lee was strongly against people cross-training JKD with other Arts. He thought JKD and other arts together was like oil and water. They just don't mix well.

    Now if you think you can apply that principal to other arts and not bother with bruces teaching then fair play to you. But then again that is what you learn doing those other arts ANYWAY! that doesn't make it JKD
  8. Oddsbodskins

    Oddsbodskins Troll hunter 2nd Class

    No mate, my point was that the attributes the dancers developed by dancing actually translated very well into boxing. You used Ballet to discredit the idea of attributes, I was pointing out that actually, ballet develops attributes which can be very effective.

    As far as the rest goes I'm not a JKD guy, and what you call your art doesn't matter too much to me, but I'm unlikely to be convinced that cross-training is a bad thing, seeing as there's not any infallible system out there I'd guess that there's always something you can learn from somewhere else.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2012
  9. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Yeah, but you would still have to learn enough grappling to keep it standing, or to break an arm.

    e.g, some meat head who done a lot of wrestling in high school shoots for you in a bar. Obviously his wrestling is pretty damn good, so what do you do? Sprawling will still probably result in being taken down, unless you're a better wrestler, so do the next best thing, fall back into guard, hips straight up and break his arm. Wrestlers don't really sub unless they are CACC, and even then, none of them work guard.

    Perhaps not the best example, it's just one. Perhaps somebody else could do a better job.
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    You mean the same Bruce Lee who crosstrained with Lebell, Rhee, Norris, Fong, Cheung, Inosanto, Parker, Dillman et al?

    Not really a convincing story is it when the subject belies the tale?
  11. Mharewood

    Mharewood Valued Member

    So the boxers got knocked by the dancers when they fought?

    there is always something to learn from somewhere else. What you do with that knowledge is what seems to be the confusion amongst most. In the case of JKD if its not simple direct efficient then find way that is. and when you do find one then find an even better way. This should be reflected in your training as well as technical skill. Training in ballet to become good at fighting is not the most efficient way of attaining that skill. Sounds pretty obvious to me
  12. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Against skilled opponents the simplest way just won't fly. Especially grapplers, because it can be countering a counter of a counter. You have to know all the minute details, from the perfectly timed hook down to the scramble in between transitions. Fighting really isn't that simple.
  13. Mharewood

    Mharewood Valued Member

    No I mean the same bruce lee who spent hours everyday practicing footwork only 2 punches and only 3 kicks after having trained with all you mentioned and discarding most of what he experienced with them and many others after carefully examining the strenghts & weaknesses of their respective arts.
    I mean the same bruce lee who used the X & Y arguement to make it clear where he stands with regards to cross training his art with others and calling it what its not.

    Convinced or not the Subject is a more reliable source than you are or will ever be!
  14. Mharewood

    Mharewood Valued Member

    If you cannot fight efficiently against a skilled opponent you won't be able to fight inefficiently.

    and if you can fight well inefficiently against one. Think of how good you'd be if you did fight efficiently.

    It realy is that simple you are just making it complicated. That is what Grappling does!

    I know it is very difficult to be simple! I've been there myself :rolleyes:
  15. february

    february Valued Member

    Hey, don't worry about whether I "like it" or not, no skin off my nose :)

    What was your length/experience/grade/belt in BJJ/catch and who did you train with?

    The reason I ask is that I see a ton of people roll through my BJJ class for a few weeks and leave with exactly the same opinion as you. Equally, those are without exception the same folks who pretty much spent most of their time getting smashed by 6 month white belts and didn't make the required effort to get any better.

    Also, your statement that learning to grapple caused your "anti-grappling" skills to deteriorate just made my head explode.
  16. Oddsbodskins

    Oddsbodskins Troll hunter 2nd Class

    Ho huhm. Strawman. I made no claim that ballet was better boxing training then boxing, what I did claim is that attributes developed through ballet translated well into it. Seeing as you were so dismissive of it. Simple direct and efficient is cool, I think most people you're having this argument would prefer to be able to do one simple technique well and reliably in a range of situations then be able to do lots of techniques badly in one specific situation. However, and I don't know if this is because I'm an FMAer by choice, there's a lot of translation between different weapons, ranges, styles and so on, if you're prepared to look for it, the same combinations and movements can have completely different purposes depending on what's in your hands. As far as I'm concerned this is simplicity, paring things down and finding the commonality, rather then complicating and compartmentalising.
    I don't think your opinions are a million miles from the consensus in this thread, but you're arguing away over anything and everything, frequently inconsistently. If you're playing devils advocate, please at least be either consistent or completely off the wall. I can appreciate a level argument and I can appreciate a little crazy, but this is just frustrating.
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    You mean after he cross trained he selected what he liked? How is that any different than the position everyone else postulates? I'll answer that for you - it isn't

    Aside from anything else, Bruce was far from complete as a fighter and he is at best untested. So even if what you state is true - which it isn't according to nearly every other source out there including his own notes - you are holding up what is a theoretical example of how to do it.

    And as the man said

    In order to discard something you first must possess it.

    The X & Y is against mere eclecticism, which is again a postion I took at the beginning - but don't let facts ruin your agenda or anything

    Cogency not a strong point of yours is it?

    Read, digest, learn

  18. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Would that footwork have some fencing in it, and the punches have some boxing and WC in it? If that's not cross training what is?
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    It's more likely he grappled with Gene Lebell and thought "Screw doing THAT regularly...I'm off to hit the bag some more and hang out with Steve McQueen and James Coburn". :)
  20. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    OK so are you telling me as an instructor he was the "Dont do as I do, do as I tell you" type?
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