For all "martial artists" who don't spar (Tai chi, Choi Kwang Do, Aikido etc.)

Nice one on getting out of that in one piece, gald you were ok.

 

So, again, are there any martial arts that do not spar?

 

The problem with that question is that there are a lot of different definitions of sparring out there.

 

Didn't we cover the definition of "sparring" yesterday when nforce and spooky were "discussing" it yesterday. :bang:

 

Yes, this was going to be my next post

 

Did we discuss sparring many posts back, but yet keep replying to this thread?

So is this thread at its end. I seen many posts back how it want off subject

 

After yesterday's debacle, I think it's time for this thread to just die. We're just rehashing old stuff at this point.

 

No there aren't. Maybe you choose to have many definitions so that when someone asks you "do you spar" you can say yes even though you don't.

Sparring is unplanned combat, no set moves, no "you do this and I'll see if I can defend" (even if they are fully resisting), it is simply 2 people engaging in combat. Now that doesn't mean no rules, obversely rules have to be in place or you could get badly hurt and not be able to spar again, but its completely unplanned and you can do whatever you want at any time, with in the rules.

 

By that definitio chi sau is sparring, so I spar.

 

As in Vsing Tsun, yes, and there is also sparring in Tai Ji Quan

 

I thought chi sau starts by engaging your opponent in the sticky hands thing?

 

That's the rule, but as according to Bigboss:

Sparring is unplanned combat, no set moves, no "you do this and I'll see if I can defend" (even if they are fully resisting), it is simply 2 people engaging in combat.

Staying in contact at the beggining by rolling, and returning to rolling after an attack are rules and don't seem to exclude it from the definition.

 

While I had really wanted to stay out of this I need to suggest that the starting from reference and the tan sau to bong sau rolling can be seen in no other way than set moves. It is the lack of disengagement and the continual return to that set reference that prevents Chi Sau (a good drill) from being considered sparring.

Chi Sau always begins at exactly the same place and with exactly the same physical reference. While you can argue that it's only used to feel out your opponent, there's still no traversing of ranges to gain reference and that effectively cuts out maintaining range by kicking.

- Matt

 

So is it to say, that martial artists whom do not spar, cannot use their skills in defense?

 

Totalizing statements never work. There's always an execption. However, a martial artist who doesn't spar is far less prepared to use thier skills in self defense and one who does.

- Matt

 

To me it does exclude it. The whole point of sparring is to learn timing to engage your techiniques at the appropriate range, against someone who isn't just giving you their arms. The fact that you're starting chi sau from a gifted reference point mean it's not building the same skillset as sparring. I think it does develop important attributes but not the same ones as sparring.

 

Somebody would have to be exceptionally skillfull to maintain range by kicking.

If you stay close to your opponent, as is the principle of Wing Chun, kicks are surprisingly easy to block and take advantage of.

http://www.wingchun.org/viewpt/one/1/vp1-1b.html

If you fight Wing Chun style there aren't different ranges, you move into bridging distance and attack and defend, if your opponent steps back you follow him. It wouldn't be much value sparring at different ranges if the basic principle of the system that you're using means that you are only fighting within a very narrow range.

Although Chi Sau starts with the tan sau, bong sau, fook sau roll, experienced students will go through a range of different arm positions searching for a gateway before striking. The unpredictability is the key and only a begginer (like me) would launch all their attacks from tan sau or bong sau.

 

At bridging distance there are only two options, somebody is giving you their arms or they are leaving a clear path to their head. If that happens you hit them.

The attacks and defences do not come from a gifted reference point, they can come from anywhere.

I think the only attributes that it excludes are fighting outside the bridging distance, but as I said in the previous post, you simply don't fight outside the bridging distance.

 

Clearly you have never free sparred against a good kicker (be it TKD or MT for example).

But getting close is the issue. I tend to be one of those people who break striking into kicking and punching range. Trying to traverse kicking range against someone with good legs can be an intimidating task. By starting at Chi Sau reference you are immediately cutting that part of an encounter out and privilaging a close range fighter.

As for your point about keeping close range to avoid kicks, I agree (one of the reasons I like it up close and personal).

And that's where I draw the biggest issue. You're doing absolutely no work getting to that close range. And few if any conflicts begin with hands touching. It's a great drill, but an extremely contrived one that doesn't work a lot of fundimental skills. And it's the contrivance of it that precludes it from being all out sparring.

Again, the return to reference and the hand patterning (be it fixed or flexible) prevents it from being free sparring in my mind.

Perhaps we might be able to consider a very contribed form of sparring. But if that's the case I still must privilage free sparring over it as a higher form of combat training.

- Matt

 

I have, I was stunned by how easy it was. I even posted on the forum about it weeks ago. One guy had 5 years TKD and was a superb kicker, the other guy had 9 months muay thai. They had nothing to stop me getting in close.

As for your point about keeping close range to avoid kicks, I agree (one of the reasons I like it up close and personal).

If your opponent is out of range the only thing that you can do is move forward into range, it's very easy to do that, you step forward. You don't need a resisting partner to practice that.

If you saw two advanced students doing chi sau you would not see much in the way of patterns. To someone who didn't know the principles of Wing Chun it would look like a streetfight.

If your system involves fighting at range and lots of kicks, then I agree that Chi Sau would not meet its needs and would be inferior to sparring. But the benefits you mention would not be benefits for Wing Chun.

- Matt[/QUOTE]