I have a bit of a situation here: My school requires that you sign a one-year contract to attend classes. I have never had an issue with it until now. My work is requiring me to be there and it is interfering with my classes. My classes are normally on Monday and Wednesday nights, and there is a 'make-up' class on Saturday in case anyone missed one during the week. My last contract just expired at the end of December, and I asked my instructor if he would work with me a little bit so I could take classes on Saturday only until April so I can keep attending some classes. He told me we could probably work something out, and he would get back to me. He got back to me (or rather his wife did by snail mail - she runs the books for the dojang) and I was told that he can't work anything out for Saturday classes. I have a couple questions: Are one year contracts the norm? How much 'wiggle room' is there if you have a special situation? From a business standpoint, I can't see why he wouldn't come up with some kind of agreement. I mean he can take SOME money for less classes, or NO money for no classes. Seems a simple choice in my mind, but maybe there is more to it. What do you think? Thanks in advance!
I generally dont like contracts, but can see why some people use them. I pay in 12 week periods....that way if Im injured or whatever, I dont keep paying....for instance I was out for about 8 months with a bust shoulder. Had that been a contract Id been screwed. What style do you do? Are there any more flexible instructors in your area?
contracts Long term contracts usually mean your school is using an outside billing company, that constantly harass us to join up with them. I can understand why a lot of schools will go with a outside billing agency (the instructor no longer has to harass you to pay them, the billing company becomes the bad guy ) Also keep in mind that your instructor and his wife like to have a personal life outside of martial arts as well and they probably enjoy their free time much in the same way you enjoy yours. Most instructors will work with you as best they can, but to in essence commit to being there on your time schedule instead of standard class times, can become a major headache for the instructor...
In Ireland Martial arts contracts is very rare thing to come across, but it is something which will become common in the not so distant future. The thing is most students when joining have this ideal in their head that Martial Arts teachers should do it for free, but for a teacher to actually open A academy or even hire a room to teach Martial Arts he/she would at the beginning usually have to take out a contract to pay for the venue maybe 6 months or a year in advance to secure the training room. He/She would probely have to take out insurance and pay that in advance, he/she would have to be there each week to teach and since he probely not a monk would need to be paid so he/she can pay the morgage, food and all his household bills. You see most people have no problem paying big money to a doctor or lawyer but never think that the Martial arts teacher who has probley spent a good number of years learning his art and sacrifice alot to get to instructor level and so if he to make a living just on getting a few dollars for a class won't be in the buisness of teaching very long. A problem what I have experience in the past if you do a favour (which you are asking from your teacher) to one student very quickly other students jump on the band wagon and they want the same offer and soon you find there is big problems because you have shown to be favouring one student over another. In my experience it is better to lose one or two students who feel wrong if there are asked to pay than having wide scale problems by letting some students of the payment. Each teacher must look at how he will be albe to pay for his club to stay open and make a living from it and once he secure a plan he has to stick by it.. On a final note contracts or advance payment is needed because with the best will in the world, finding students who come to class each week without fail in the western world is very hard. Modern living means we have many temptation and people word is no longer their bond so its better to get the money up front and so the teacher can concentrate on doing what he does best that is "TEACH"
There are a lot of people who believe the Instructor should be teaching for free. This seems a ridiculous idea to me, as like said, they have the same bills etc that we do and these bills need paid just as much. silatliam> Would all contracts have to be yearly, or as I said Robert takes 12weeks advance, I mention it as its a lot easier to find 12 weeks money in one go than 52 weeks. I think my biggest problem with contracts is the long term ones....."sign up for 3 years and we gaurantee you a Black-Belt" type contracts. 1 Year at a time would be ok, with some form of finance arangment.....is this what the outside contractor do? Indeed people's word is no longer their bond unfortunately. It would be nice if it were not so.
westerners... I really agree with the last part. My dojang has had the worst time with people stiffing them on money by leaving. They have contracts because of the huge number of people who can't last. Of all the people I started with, only a handful remain, and that is really a serious issue for a business to stay open. To credit of my school, we can take any classes at anytime, in TKD, HKD, or Yudo. It is really a rare thing it seems.
a little clarification... First of all, I presently study Kuk Sool Won. I LOVE it. I have been studying for slightly more than two years and wouldn't trade it for anything. I don't really have much of a problem with contracts - I see the benefit in that you get to 'weed out' anyone who doesn't really want to be there. Hard to commit to something for long term if you're not really into it. Now to further clarify my personal situation: My instructor (the HEAD instructor who actually owns the Dojang) is rarely at class. We are normally taught by a couple of 3rd Degree BB's and a couple 2nd and 1st degree BB's. I have no problem with this because I know he has his own life, and he also has his own training to do for his own personal advancement. That whole concept is not a problem with me. With these other instructors who are committed to being at the Dojang at particular times, I can't see how agreeing to let me take classes on Saturday only could have any impact on him (head instructor) personally. I am going into this with the understanding that things come up and the Sat class will not always be there EVERY weekend. My question still lingers pertaining to the business end of it: why not take the money for a 'saturday only when class is available' contract over nothing at all and end up turning an established, motivated student away? I just don't get it.
I think silatliam nailed that one, if he gives you that contract and ohters want it too, he'll have to oblige. Then it'll turn out to be just a saturday class. Better to lose your money and keep everyone elses, as lose them all...
Signing a contract is a bad idea to me. If a student decides that the martial arts are not for them and decide to leave after 6 months, why should they be forced to pay for another 6 months of lessons? The contract people I met were all about the money and not about the training. The people who I paid on a monthly basis? If I was not happy, there was no money from me next month so those kinds of instructors have to treat the students good. No ignoring them, no watching TV while the senior students do all the work, No collecting the monthly fees and then leaving the class until next month. The instructor is forced to be a good people person as well as a fighter to retain monthly paying students. That is good for a well rounded martial artist, to be able to fight and keep people happy.
Oh yeah, oops... I guess I kind of overlooked that reply when my eyes started going buggy from the big paragraph.. Sorry Silatliam! Didn;t mean to ignore. You probably did nail it. Thanks for the insight.
From the outside, Kuk Sool Won appears a highly commercial operation with high fees for gradings and so on. Is this a misperception? (Not that this reflects how good the style is.) Although there is odd Kuk Sool Won school near me, it's a rare style in the UK. Any idea how much more common it is in the US? Have you done any of the acrobatics, knife throwing or horseback archery? Fortunately, we don't suffer from annual contracts in the UK. However, commited I may be, I'd struggle to sign a 1-year contract. Too many things can go wrong in a year (injury, job loss, etc).
Justin, too bad you're on the east coast. We don't do contracts at all. This really sucks for you. Have you considered private lessons once per month until you can get on a regular schedule again?
my problem is, and i am upfront if i move with instructors that my work is shift based, unpredictable and i need flexibility. my current instructor works on 35 quid for the month (two lessons a week.) or 5 each time. I don't mind paying this as i see it as a good mix of the two. I work for a gym that works on annual contact and pay my phone the same way but neither limit me to two exact time slots twice a week so i wouldn't commit further. I see why they do it to get a guarranteee as they rent the room etc but for MA here is no way i would sign into a contact.
As a school owner, I use contracts and would not accept a student who has a problem with it. This is a mutual commitment, I am making a commitment to them which I keep and I expect the same from them. I give free trial classes and let them train up to one month before making a commitment, then they must make a decision. In the USA, by contract law, if they have a medically verified health problem or move out of a 25 mile radius of the school (upon verification), they are released from the contract. I consider even the first year an extended trial period, for both the student and for us. They are finding out if this is what they really want to commit to, and we are "trying them out"; seeing if they will put in the work and do what they are supposed to. If not, I do not let them continue. If someone is not going to come to class at least twice a week on a regular basis and make up any missed classes, they will not be able to keep up with the ciriculum. I know that things come up in life, but tough times don't last, tough people do. And no one has ever benefitted from giving up on something good for them or that has value. There are probably some instructors and school owners out there who are more concerned about the money than the students, but they are generally the exception. If you are going into a field to get rich, there are a lot of easier and quicker ways to do it. The millionare instructors out there are people who would have become rich in ANY field they had went into and probably much faster than in this one. And most of them by smart investments of their profits rather than just the school's profits alone. One of the things we claim to teach in the arts is discipline, but by it's definition, you can not have discipline without commitment. I can not do my job properly without a strong commitment from my students (and if a child, from their parents). It takes at least a year to teach and ingrain within the student the life skills that they came to me to learn. For a martial arts instructor or school, the quality of our students and the diffference we make in their lives IS our product. If we do not show definite results in our students, then our reputation in the community and the marketplace is damaged. If I have students quitting after a few months and not really getting any lasting benefits out of their time with us, I am doing a huge dis-service to both them and to the repuatation of my program and school. Finally, in my experience, there are far more students out there who will financially try to take advantage of a school or instructor, than the other way around. With a contract, both parties have a written, legal agreement that obligates both sides. There is no question of what the terms are and when someone finds it no longer convenient to honor their word and agreement (or they "don't remember promising that"), there is a legal document backing it up. Even at that, you would be amazed at how many people still go delinquent on their accounts and try to amke you out as the "bad guy".
I pay $620 for a one year contract. It's 125 down with 45 per month. That covers all testing (except for black belt). I have heard that testing for black belt is very expensive and I am not looking forward to that part of it. Kuk Sool Won isn't very common where I live, but I see more schools popping up in the US every year. It is gaining popularity thanks to TKD Times. I have done lots of acrobatics and limited knife throwing. I have concentrated more on jool-bong (nunchucks - spelling??) and the staff lately. They don't require that you do the acrobatics - just that you do the best that you can based on your abilities. Kwan Jang - I understand what you are saying and I agree with most of it. If I was a new stuident and I tried to get a contract different from everyone else then I can see why he would say no. I have been taking this class for over 2 years now, and I have 2 of my kids taking it as well. On top of that, I help teach my son's class once a week. He doesn't have a problem with me helping teach that class, but he won't work with me during this temporary situation I have. I have heard of him working with students based on their situation before and I guess I was hoping that I would be able to do the same based on my good standing and committment to the art. I put myself in the shoes of the dojang owner for a second... Let's say I help a student out by letting him/her take a less contract for once a week only classes based on their current situation. If someone else came to me demanding I did the same for them just because I did it for someone else, I would tell them that if they can prove the need for it then I would honor it, but being the owner gives me the right to make decisions and stick with them even if it is unpopular. Besides, you don't have to brag to everyone about it. It's not like he'd go to class on monday night and tell everyone "hey, I just got a new contract to come once a week and I pay half what you do!". I'm sure there is a discreet way to handle the situation and I would expect people to respect the privacy of others. Just my humble opinion..
Some people would but, or it'd get out on the side......questions would arise...."How come you only come on sat?" "Do you still pay full price?" Respect for others privacy is few and far between in my experience, even with the best intentions
For Me, It's the big lie! I must confess, I've never really discussed this with other schools, nor do I believe their answer would necessarily be true but: Although there is a real need to discuss programs and schedule rank/age/specialty classes, etc. I rarely inforce them with any real zeal. If you are a dedicated student and ask if you could attend a class that you weren't originally signed up for, there would need to be a specific reason I'd say no. Fact is, unless the class was not suitable for you, or there were too many people in the room, I don't see myself saying no. I even have a Library, A chess set, A Go set and training tapes in my front room that is set up like a living room. The Dojo is a place where you can grow mentally, physically & hopefully spiritually. If life was just about doing damage every martial artist would be leasing a ballistic missle silo. LOl Pete Ticali
I thin alot of this also depends upon how many training opportunities the school offers the students and if its a full time dojo for example and arguments sake: 100 quid per month for a school offering 10 lesson opportunities and the ability to drop in and train any time 50 quid per month lessons mon @ 8 and Thurs @ 8 I see this from both view points, the instructor must cover their bills or they would be paying for their students to train. My job pays my mortagage, etc including my MA. If it necessitates staying three weeks a month late on for arguments sake above mon and thurs I have no option. I then have to supplement my training elsewhere I could not join a school that worked on that principle or it would simply cost to much to train. In my experience all the instructors i have chosen to train with have been sympathetic to this as i have been upfront with them from the start. In one instance i have agreed to pay a much higher fee for this flexibility.
