We had a two hour BJJ seminar at the dojo yesterday given by some guy from Reading (I think - may have been Swindon). Not bad some interesting info and some techniques which might be useful one day. However my conclusions: a) I still don't see BJJ as a primary self defence, I don't want to be rolling around in the street or on the floor of some bar. Although it might be unavoidable so BJJ might make a good secondary art/sport. b) Given point "a" the ground fighting I already learn in JJJ and Krav Maga is probably already sufficient assuming I never end up fighting a BJJ expert. c) If I ever did end up on the ground with an expert, BJJ doesn't seem to address a lot of techniques which are available. I.e. small joint locks, pressure points, gouging, biting, etc. The teacher (who was only a white belt) left us with the suggestion that we get together a group and practice the techniques he'd shown us and "explore rolling together" and he could come back a few times a year to add techniques. I'm not overly tempted for the reasons given above but if anybody who's got more experience of BJJ thinks my reasoning is wrong I'd like to hear what you have to say.
who cares if people think your reasoning is wrong, lifes too short to train stuff you dont see value in. But it does seem a bit strange you would make this thread though if you have already made your mind up on the issue? Anyway just go and enjoy your training
A) It is pressure tested in a "sport" environment ergo has a vastly superior training methodology. It is also far more than just groundfighting B) No it isn't - it is inferior C) Yes it does - you try "dirty" tactics without having a decent base to use them and you will be in a world of hurt. Essentially if you do you have escalated and are in an even WORSE postion. Or in the paraphrased words of Bas Rutten "Never mess with the guy who has dominant position" -
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc5lPvZ_Vf4"]Prof. Robert Clark, World Ju Jitsu Federation, 1986 - CLEANER AUDIO.avi - YouTube[/ame] The Simple answer is do you think you could successfully assault this White belt and not get choked or armbarred? Ps notice all most of the waza in this end up in Grappling range -
So you are basing your conclusions on a two hour seminar with a "white belt" in BJJ? I suggest if you really want to see if the ground fighting you are learning in JJJ is sufficient then go to a BJJ school and ask if you can roll in one of their open mat sessions. I also strongly suggest seeking out a purple or black belt in the crowd and asking them politely if you can roll. You can also try small joint locks and pressure points and see if they work in a safe environment. Some of the guys might even let you gouge their eyes but I wouldn't suggest biting anyone. :evil: Seriously though you have nothing to lose and it will help answer your questions.
No I quite understand that BJJ is a much more in depth style than what I'm likely to learn in JJJ/Krav the question is how much do I need to know. I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it, but if the guys do organise a group I might join in - say once a week for a month or so. Then again we were only able to cover a very limited number of techniques in two hours. Or I could just do an hour now and again and turn up for when the guy comes back to show us new techniques. How does it address these sorts of issues.
The reason I don't study boxing is that in the street if anything happens I intend to pull guard immediately. I've never seen boxing teach how to punch a guy sitting on his backside with his legs in the air, so it has no value to me. Each to their own.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7qImIKom10"]Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: Eye Gouging and the Power of Position - YouTube[/ame] Especially this one - https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...L6nU2_YASY8GIDaPg&sig2=cCW7xReMEx97PBdWPIw2gw
if you enjoy krav maga and jjj, then continue. but i think you're missing the point of bjj as a survival art. no, you don't want to "roll around" on the "floor of a bar". but if you find yourself on the ground, with a brute or two on top of you, do you think that krav maga and jjj have given you sufficient practice to escape that situation? i'm just wondering. forget the "expert" bjj or even the whether you could accomplish removing yourself from mount from a bjj white belt. i'm talking about a brute who knows nothing of martial arts, gets on top of you to ground you into a pulp. do you think km will help you there? have you attempted to extricate yourself from that situation? and how did it go?
Trewornan - Have you heard similar things to your conclusions above from your JJJ and/or Krav Maga teachers? Have you asked them their thoughts?
Fusen - that first video is actually the guy who runs the JJJ organisation I'm learning with and the second video is very interesting. I probably wouldn't have a hope of getting that white belt off me but as for the brute in the bar - yes we do learn escapes both in JJJ and Krav but I've never had to try them for real. Maybe I'll give BJJ a try at least . . . if a group does get organised. Is it normal to learn BJJ like this though - I don't have any other options within a reasonable travelling distance.
Using your three examples: Pressure points: I'm sure people will disagree with me but this one is so overrated in my opinion. I don't doubt there are people who can use pressure points in a really effective way but I doubt they're near the majority of people who train them. BJJ doesn't address them because it doesn't really need to. Sit in a jujitsu guys guard and try to pressure point your way to a submission and I put money on the jits dude getting a finish first. small joint locks: Safety issue I'd imagine. That said I don't see much need to deal with it? Its quite an instinctive thing to do to grab a small joint and twist it so there's no technique to practice. The only difference is the jujitsu guy is more likely to be able to control your arms well enough to do it to you first. Gouging and biting: As above really. Both don't need much in the way of learning how to do them. The difference in a self defence scenario is the jujitsu person is the one who's going to be in the position to do it. I assume its much easier to do the eye gouging when you're sat on their chest and they can't reach your face anywhere near as easily as you can. The only time I've ever heard someone mention biting in a way that might have merit is biting someone's leg when they're trying to armbar you but even then all you've really done is give them a good reason to break your arm
Not after the seminar but beforehand there was some informal discussion. My Krav instructor was confident that what we learnt with him was good enough for general self defence. My kickboxing sensei was surprisingly pro BJJ especially for an expert from the striking side of MA. I didn't talk to my JJJ Sensei she's a bit obsessive - if it's not JJJ she wouldn't be interested.
Any time I hear someone say that something is 'good enough', what I hear is 'not the best'. Why is that surprising? It just means he is self aware enough to realise that kickboxing isn't the be all and end all of martial arts.
Do you do JJJ? I thought it was more of a British hybrid system? Maybe I have you confused with someone else? Anyway being myopic about your training is not a good thing.
I'm learning with WJJF (World Ju Jitsu Federation) which despite the name is a more or less purely British organisation although it supposedly accounts for about 80% of the JJJ dojos in the UK. Apparently (and I'm no expert) it's basically just one guys interpretation of JJJ namely Robert Clark who runs a big dojo up in Liverpool. It doesn't have a "clean lineage" and is a bit of a mish mash of different schools/styles. I've been pretty happy with it though and in any case it's Hobson's choice round here.
Cheers. Thought so. All in all that makes your teacher's attitude a little odd. But hey as long as you are informed and happy then all is good.
And he's only a beginner, imagine what a long term student could do. Lots of people learn bjj informally, its defiantly not the best way, but you will at least be laying the groundwork (get it) for latter success!
