Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Timmy Boy, Jun 13, 2005.

  1. blackpuma

    blackpuma New Member

    If you're saying that there's no glossary or explicit list (such as Ringeck's explicitly listing the "three wonders"), I believe you're right.

    If you mean that there weren't three phases of combat (OK, so maybe "ranges" is a poor term; :rolleyes: I stand corrected), and that those three terms aren't used in conjuction with those three phases, I'll have to disagree.

    I might not have the world's greatest intellect, but (1) there appear to be three phases of combat in their manuals (2) we need names and (3) those terms appear in conjunction with those phases of combat, thus it seems a reasoned conclusion.

    You're free to fuss over the fact that the recorders of the Lichtenauer tradition forgot to spell everything out step by step for us. :D Past a certain point I don't let it bother me and have no problem saying that represents a modern understanding of a subject that's opaque in many ways. I'm open to alternative, reasoned opinions, and have changed my mind in the face of a compelling contrary argument. Until then I reserve the right to spout off my understanding (including those times when I'm struggling to put both feet in my mouth). :eek:

    I don't have that one. I've seen it a few times and have casually flipped through it. IIRC it was only English (?) in which case I'm not too interested.
  2. Adam R

    Adam R New Member

    Well - I did say I was being pedantic :D. You are right - the distances exist whatever we call them - it helps to define them within the style we study - I'm not allergic to that - but I always err on the side of caution when it comes to using this modern application of their terminology too much - it might mask something we have missed or confuse something they were trying to describe - see how often that happens on forums :eek:

    Yeah - that is Christian's book of extrapolated principals - I'm fairly hesitant about that kind of thing - I prefer translations - translations with the original text by preference. The author's interpretations where they appear are an interesting aside.
  3. blackpuma

    blackpuma New Member

    I'm in complete agreement with you there.

    It's an important point that can always bear mention from time to time.
  4. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    I wasnt aware that you would have to buy a full set up for both hands just to TRAIN. Ive used right handed fencing jackets before, and im a lefty using my left hand. I dont see the problem.
  5. Xoxi

    Xoxi Valued Member

    Well.. theres a couple of problems.

    I think what Wynnston meant about changing hands mid-contest is that you have to unplug and run the wire to the other hand, which means taking your jacket off.

    As for gear - if you are left handed and want to fence right handed, you can still use the same handed jacket and lames but the zips will be on the wrong side, as is the little ring thing for attaching the wire, so your arm could get caught in it. There is no way to use a lefthanded sword in your right hand so you need another set. Another glove is fairly cheap.

    But youre right, theres nothing stopping you buying/borrowing an opposite handed sword and practising flicks and footwork drills. It would be good for the body, and I wish I had done some of that.. But hard to find the time since it doesnt improve your skills.
  6. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Would this have been a problem in the renissanse as well? :p
  7. Wynnston

    Wynnston Member

    That is what I meant plus changing the asymmetric zip jacket & lame for left handed ones as it's not a good idea to expose the zip on the sword arm side. If you have a zip up the back job then no problem.

    I sometimes do footwork drills on my left side but I've rarely bothered trying to fence left handed. Might give it a try in training one day to see what it's like again. I seem to remember it's like trying to write with your non dominant hand - doable but extremely frustrating as you keep trying to write as well and as fast as normal and it just won't work.

    Talking of handedness, a fencing urban myth has it that the upper levels of fencing are disproportionally populated by lefties. I've heard two reasons for this. One is that in the early stages of fencing careers lefties find it easier to deal with righties (because they meet more of them) and get to a higher level as a result. The other is that lefties are naturally more technically oriented and their brains are more suited to fencing than righties. I dunno if either explanation has merit or even if there really are a load of lefties at higher levels. If either explanation were true I guess you should see more lefties in tennis and badminton etc as well.

    NOTE: I Googled this thing after writing the above which seems to partially support these ideas:

  8. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all


    I occaisionally do SCA rapier fence and the loaner "armor" consists of right handed fencing jackets with the buttons in the front, and the SCA is known for being waaaaay super saftey conscience, so it cant be that unsafe to use a opposite handed jacket.

    and im still confused about the whole lefty advatange. I remember breifly having an advantage being lefty but even I have trouble fighting agsint lefties with my left hand and switching to my right hand seems to work better against lefties in my experience.
    BUt it might be from all those that I got teh feeling that it was " unchivalrous" to use the elft hadn agsint a righty if you are naturally left handed.
  9. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    Hi - I know what you mean but I disagree - let me explain why...

    Way back when I used to fence - Mainly foil, some epee (my favorite weapon) and a little sabre - the thing I loved - especially with foil - is that you actually got to kill people...

    Now of course you didn't really kill people - that would be uncool - but when the foil went to the opponents heart and the foil did that lovely bendy thing that indicates it would have gone in and as I shout 'HELA' then I have killed my opponent.

    That's a a great feeling (In a demented psychopathic sort of way) which I NEVER found in sparring or competition fighting either in Kung Fu or in Karate.

    So, for me, in some ways fencing was truly martial.

    Also I was lucky my instructor taught us a little quarterstaff and also some sword and dagger work (Take a broken foil - rework the blade and you have a dagger).

    I DOOOOOOOO like double swords of any type.

    OK Time for my medication now (probably need to increase the dosage again) :) :) :) :)

    All the best.

  10. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    :) hehe, I agree with both of you.

    I read your post cuch, and in a way you are right and rob's right too.

    If you'de had a real saber in your hand would he have disarmed you so easy?

    probably not, you'de take his wrists off before he got near you with 2 short blade probably..unless he throws a one at you :D

    In some sport MA's maybe they focus too much just on those aspacts that are under regulation, plus there's all different styles. When practiced traditionally, especially the japanese aikijutsu/aikido and most if not all others have some kind of martial techniques that serve to compliment the weapons. I think savate (?) from France is another such ma that derived from weapon skills. The practitioners themselves would have seen to that. Just like FMA that has stayed v.strong while others are more rare trained like that. The japanese have the short sword too and all sorts of stuff is taught to disarm and general combat involving weapons taught in traditional kenjutsu. FMA has stayed strong because it is both strong traditionally and with its sparring methods. I had a short play with the sticks not long ago and it was pretty tricky for sure.
    There is no better way than to go from form to function than some sort of competative way of sparring. I can't stress that enough. The less rules the better - using lighter softer replicas of some kind is a great way of testing out what you learn. When sparring with bokken replicas we look for clean cuts and and thrusts distance speed and timeing and power is all important.Plus defence is important as well. For me though although I can't deny I enjoy the physical aspect, I do my best to use it as an opportunity to train detachment and awareness. win lose it's all a game.

    Motive, intent, focus, action - there is no regret.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2005
  11. Wynnston

    Wynnston Member

    I think robertmap has got it :D

    When you're in that zone in a fight focusing with everything you have on getting the last hit to win the fight or even the competition nothing else matters, it seems as if there is no-one else around you. Sometimes you can suprise yourself how quick you can move or how well timed a move can come off. There is also the adrenaline of knowing that if you screw up you're gonna get nailed and maybe lose the fight. That's what it's all about for me and it doesn't matter whether it's foil or epee or sabre or a couple of foam padded sticks or whatever - when it works it all feels the same and its great.

    No fencing isn't particularly martial or realistic but is sure as hell can feel like it if you want it to :D

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