Hey all, have any of you guys ever heard of any of these guys : "Grandmaster McEaddy's Angelic Ninjutsu" "Grandmaster Marc C. Ling" "Grandmaster Ronald Duncan" I have done some searching but havent been able to uncover much apart from Ronald Duncan , do you guys know anything? also check this out : http://bushido.org/~WHFSC/Grandmaster/Verkerke.htm and look at the ninjutsu stuff oddly enough there are name such as Stephen Hayes and Grandmaster Hatsumi , so i guess im a little confused
i got a question...what determines if a ninjutsu master is fake or not....most "fake" masters have had some MA background. Is it correct to call them fake or would it be better to say that they only claim to teach ninjutsu but are actually teach some other MA? Jus a question that ive had runnin through my had for a while. Plz remember im still a newbie so be gentle.....
they're fake because they claim to hold a grandmaster status on an art they have nothing to do with. IMO they're past record in any martial arts means nothing as soon as they claim to be from a linegae (sp? i know) that they've had nothing to do with. it's like me. i've taken karate, judo, and very little kendo. but it's like me saying i'm a aikido grand master after watching a few videos and reading a few books on the art. i would be making profits, from people who want and expect to learn the art from someone after paying money. IMO, credibility and recognition should be thrown out of the window. they have no reason to be respected anymore. even if they were once a 9th degree black belt in...whatever. they still claim to teach an art that has no known existence anymore (koga). i'm positive they're making more money teaching "koga-ryu" then they ever did teaching whatever style they used to... probably a grappling art and a striking art. they might be good martial artists, but they're obviously not good liars. they deserve no credit for a sub-culture (martial arts) that has a background of being trustworthy and good people. they threw it out the window when they lied, especially for profit. that's just my take on the subject of "fake" masters. hopefully someone else has a nother take on the subject.
You can e-mail Grandmaster Duncan through his web site, wayofthewinds.com, with any questions you might have. As someone who has trained a few years in that lineage, in addition to my original teachers, I can honestly that Duncan's techniques are worth their weight. I have my own view on why Grandmaster Duncan is constantly labled a fake, but I reserve to right to comment on that at a later time.
I think the best reason for that has already been given: Please note that this is in no way a comment on Ronald Duncan's skill or ability -- it's just that there is no verifiable connection with an actual lineage of ninjutsu in Japan.
thank you , yes We are not bashing him as a Martial artist but saying he is fake as he claims to teach a art that he has no verifiable lieage ....not saying hes a bad martial artist only hes not ninjutsu ...but still stare into the eyes of doom ....sry ...couldnt resist
At the risk of offending many: Contrary to what many may preach, stating that the integrity of an artist in question is held in such high esteem, what this simply comes down to, hate me or love me for saying it, is race. Allow me to expound: Ronald Duncan is a Black man who has been teaching ninjutsu in the USA since 1965 or '66. No one has gone on record to challenge his claims for many years until Hatsumi/Tanemura popped up. All of a sudden, he is a fraud due to his lack of 'traceable lineage'. Is it not possible for densho to be fraudulent, or are we so eager to believe the Asian is more reputable a martial artist than the Black man? Am I downing the Asians? Certainly not; my own shihan was Japanese, and he stated the world would easier believe an Asian claimining high rank than any other race unless the person in question was promoted by that Asian master. while Hatsuni and Tanemura have put ninjutsu/ninpo on many a mind, they have in turn done a disservice as well. How are we so certain that the Koga arts are in fact dead? Because we were told so by someone who allegedly has proof? Even carbon dating of the densho is not viable proof that the words contained are true. the I am very skeptical of anyone claiming that an entire system, which could in fact be the antithesis or complement of their own, is dead. All I have to say is that history has shown that some of the most trusted pieces of written history had, at some time, been re-written in parts or as a whole, to serve the personal intent of the 'author'. King James did just that with the Bible; while I know those of you who are not entirely religious may not care for that reference, it is the most obvious.
I thought was the japanese historians who came to this conclusion as they would be in the best position, not a karate er ninjutsu teacher from america! How can anyone studdying koga ryu prove it is authentic? every time the subject comes up there is never anyone with enough high ranking noodle to prove it, seems odd to me.
That is just silly. I'm guessing that you probably weren't even around back then; but I was, and in the early martial-art magazine articles Duncan was not claiming to teach ninjutsu. Rather, he was described as simply a jujitsu instructor with an interest in classic "ninja weaponry" who was incorporating this arsenal into his training and teaching.
Satokan, I myself am a minority and have been subjected to religious and racial discrimination; I do not disbelieve Mr. Duncan due to his being, as you say, "a Black man who has been teaching". I do not see what importance his race is to this. Bufu Ikkan, Jibran Khan
well with all do respect its true common a streotypes is the whole "asian grandmaster" ..but I would like to say it doesnt matter what colour your are etc etc ....but seeing as ninjutsu is a japanese martial arts .....doesnt it make sense that the grandmaster japanese also correct me if im wrong but apparently Fujita Seiko (generally last belived soke of koga) when he was alive still belived the ninjutsu was a secret art and should not be taught openly espically to westerners "In post World War II Japan, such a set of circumstances existed. The old rules no longer applied and the old schools of the samurai had evolved into classical, and then modern Budo, and were being taught to the American occupiers, whom Fujita had fought during the war, and whom he had feared would ban the martial arts as a means of destroying Japanese culture. Fujita was further troubled by the fact that other Japanese martial artists, such as Hatsumi Yoshiaki (who later changed his name to Masaaki), and Hatsumi's teacher, Takamatsu Toshitsugu, were revealing the sacred teachings of Ninjutsu to public scrutiny. An example of this public exposure was the 1967 release of Black Belt Magazine's second and third issues to the western martial arts community. The two releases contained articles featuring Hatsumi Yoshiaki demonstrating various Ninjutsu techniques, a clear departure from the days when even speaking the art's name was taboo." also yes he may have been undisputed until Takamatsu (rip) came along probably becuase he (soke masaaki and maybe SKH) were the first to teach openly and bring ninjutsu to the western world with a certifiable lineage and maybe a densho can be wrong but a densho is better than no densho
I'll go with Dale on this. I am old enough to remember "back when" and Mr. Duncan, while a talented martial artist (no one disputes that) was teaching jujitsu, with an interest in archaic (read Ninja) weapons. It wasn't until Hayes came out teaching that RD said he was teaching ninjutsu. Sure, densho can be faked, practically anything can, but they can also be researched and either hold up to the scrutiny or not.
Koga Ryu Like Greg said, whenever the subject comes up. There is never a high ranking student/instructor from any Koga ryu to give us any insight, no training syllabus's etc. the must had been some x-students of Koga Ryu where are they or did they just 'disappear' Gary
While I was not 'around' in '65, I have met and trained with a few of Master Duncan's original pupils. he did not openly advertise ninjutsu, but this was part of the curriculum on Friday nights from 7pm to 12 am; jujutsu, of course, was the main system taught during the week along with weaponry and a from of kempo. Teaching syllabus aside, I find it very interesting that few if any people dispute what Hatsumi/Tanemura has to say. Are they skillful and knowledgeable? Indeed so, but i am taken aback by this blind loyalism that has carried on for so many years. There are authentic Koga stylists living today, but everytime the wrod 'Koga' comes up, mouths smirk, eyes roll. Can you blame people for wanting to keep quiet and just cointinue in a peaceful existance without feeling a need to prove themselves at every turn? Nonetheless, I'm not trying to win converts, but just speak up on behalf of a man who has a sizeable input in ninjutsu. Thank you.
They cant be that peaceful if they are training students and you are on here spouting about them, this is a new millenium, people are more cautious, they want to know more about people teaching them, why, if these koga guys are so authentic do the fear coming out in public? Because they know they are fake?
Why start it then, we all know that this type of thread is like throwing meat to the hungry wolves!!! Anyway, i would personally love to hear a koga ryu student tell us about their lineage!
Dale's post As per Dale's post, he was around then and therefore thats enough for me. Everyone can be a friend or 'know' one of the chaps original students. But if the Koga's want a quiet life why 'keep' showing up on the forums, its like a 'good' business idea, if its that good keep it to yourself. So basically either provide info to just shut us up or we will have to 'release' Greg and you would'nt want that!
