There are no medieval Scottish manuscripts but a few researchers believe Highlanders maintained some medieval swordplay into the 1700's, such as the medieval guard from the I.33 Manuscript they call the Nebenhut it is a feature of the first section/step of the Dirk Dance. Advancing on your opponent with the weapon held hidden at arms length behind you.... I use the work of European masters (e.g. Petter 1674) to illustrate that techniques such as a 'Nevel' (Old Scots for a blow using the elbow), isn't only a Thai Boxing technique but was used in the 1600's Europe... (Check out my article in the magazine section of MAP) There are no websites that I know of with these fragments, the steps of the Dirk Dance was published by dance researchers Tom & Joan Flett in their book 'Traditional Step Dancing in Scotland' Mr Flett passed away but his only student (now in his 70's) has agreed to pass on the dance to me personnally... Only a few weeks ago Backhold Wrestling Coach Willie Baxter mentioned to me off-hand that he was taught Dirk fighting as a teenager 50 years ago, I hope to expand on that. And I believe the veteran fencing coach is retired but he did pass on some single-stick to Edinburgh Maestro Paul MacDonald, and an English fencing coach, Milo Thurston. Louie
*holds up hands innocently* I was merely posting my observations from my experience. The power of nearly every technique comes from your legs, correct. However, the sheer weight of the weapon causes the slashing to be slower than that of the katana. Good point on the sheilds, but even techniques with a buckler are different than the majority of what we are taught. One thing I think we need to remember when comparing arts is the relative sizes of eastern and western folk. Let's face it, the size of the average samurai would be much smaller than the size of the average heraldic knight. Thus, weapons such as axes, pikes, and greatswords developed from the cultures with more body mass, while the smaller orientals came up with the tai chi sword, katana, and naginata. (The true naginata is acutally a lot lighter with a longer blade than most eastern polearms.) Different cultures and body styles created the different fighting styles. It is still a good idea to cross-train, though.
While it is true that the swing of a gretesword would be slowerthn a shorter bladed weapon, such as a katana, that does not mean there is less finesse invovled, I beleive quite the opposite. It is so much easier to place yourself of positon with gretesword by swinging to hard and over cooercting that it requires more finesse. About your point on Europeans being on average larger than Orientals, while that is true you should think about this, there is wider range of body types and sizes among Europeans and those of European descent than there is among Orientals. And about fighting styles, there are a finite amount of ways that the human body can use a weapon the only real difference between fighting styles is the mindset and philosophy behind it.
Just curious; what is your experience with western martial arts? I beg to differ; I don't think eurpean weapons weigh anything more than similar japanese swords. This is just a myth created by holywood. I might get you wrong here, but If I understand you correct, I think you're wrong. My trainer and other leading WMartists' latest theories is that most shields were used in similar ways as the bucklers; it's just that no manuals describing roundshields etc. have survived. When we apply the bucklar way of fighting to the other shields, the tecniqes works just as fine. Well I think you're wrong. You put too much emphasis on the european greatswords that are extreme. Theese were hardly ever used in battle, and would most certainly not be used in duels perhaps exept for arenafighting. The european longsword is much more comparable with the katana (same balance, same weight, slightly longer) And as Cudgel allso sais; european aren't huge, it's just a result of heralds and trubadurs elaborating the heroes. Knights would probably grow as big as they got, due to exess of food and training and no hard labor. They would still allmost never exeed 1m75cm. On this I can agree, it's very smart to cross train. That way you realize how similar the tecniqes are! Eastern martial arts have a longer unbroken tradition and better trained masters (There's actually noone in the WMA comunity that dares to even suggest to be a master; we're yet all amateurs), and we probably do have a lot to learn from Katanamasters on topics like perception, cuttingtraining, combos etc. that haven't survived with the manuals.
*taps out* I know when I'm beat... Okay, but seriously, as I said in an earlier post, a lot of my experience comes from the SCA. I guess my impression of the larger europeans comes from there, then. The sheer strength needed to move in that armor when I'm used to a gi is staggering... I guess it would just be my personal martial arts style that gives me the wrong impression on the shields, then. The concept of agility and parrying for blocking comes from too many years of karate, and I don't adapt well to shield work. Although, admittedly, most of the other martial artists that had the same trouble with shields trained more in judo and jujitsu.
well what kind of armor do you wear? Is it fit your body only? Or is it loaner armor? What is made of? oNe of the reasons I never got into heavies is because I had to use loaner armor and unless you armor fits it will weigh a lot more than it should.
I don't know wether this was ment for me or mr. Furikuchan We usually don't use any armor at all, only padded gloves, sometimes not even that. We try to stop the blows, just to mark a score, but sometimes we miscalculate, somthing that causes real pain. My latest injury; a metalsword hit in the nerve in the elbow still hurts 6 weeks after. We do not aim for the head. Some people go full contact, wearing proper armor: Plate helmets with padded headwear beneath, plate/leather gauntlets/vambraces and chainmail brynje with gamberson (padded cloth) beneath. My experience with that kind of armor is that it is quite heavy, but the trapped heat is a bigger problem.
Ms. Furikuchan. Even in just my chain mail, I still have a hard time moving like I do in a gi. Give me a judo gi over this metal stuff any day.
what kind of maille? How thick are the links? what gauge wire was used? How much padding do you use? Well there you go. You are compareing a gi, a set of clothes that is made to cover without hindering your movements, to maille, which is meant to protect your flesh from the blows of a weapon. You should campare armor to normal clothes or to other forms of armor instead of a gi. I used to thikn some of my pratice weapons were heavy until I weighed them and found out taht even alight sword would weigh twice what my practice swrods weighed. Perception is very important.
Speed and heat, not strength; agreed? When I wear armor, there's more mass to move, and I tend to move slower than when wearing nothing. But otherwise, I find the extra weight causing no problems. You'll also have problems finding a piece of armor offering so much mobility and agility as the (properly made) mail-brynje. I've allso seen folk in full plate making forewards rolls, backwards rolls, do the wheel and swim without much problems, and they are not cloned Swartzeneggers.... Apart from needing more time to sidestep, advance and retreat, the only other way armor hamper me is the problem with ventilation; overheating, that's neither a strength-related problem. What is truely facinating, is that in the teachings of Fiore del Libere you have different tecniqes for wether you/your opponent is plated or not. He has notes stating "this should not be performed without armor" -or "this works particularly well against armor". A lot of his tecniqes for disarming/locking daggerattacks are impossible to perform when the attacker and you are in no armor, things move to fast, making small cuts, jabs and thrusts at eachother. But when properly armed, things slow down, and you allso need that more effort to get through the armor. This opens a new world of daggertecniqes that leads to horribly effective disarms, locks, breaks and throws. Your experience makes me wonder how the weight/bulk of the armor you're used to from SCA?
I don't have any problem moving in chain, unless I make the mistake (only once so far, never again) of sleeping in it. Then moving at all is difficult.
Stolenbjorn: "I beg to differ; I don't think eurpean weapons weigh anything more than similar japanese swords. This is just a myth created by holywood. " while the weight might not be that different, the Katana was much better balanced than almost any other sword, allowing for much faster cuts.
I've held antique longswords which are balanced perfectly where the tang becomes blade, and I challenge you to find a badly balanced sabre or rapier that was actually intended for use. Even the rather cheap and nasty versions I've got are balanced almost exactly to my preference.
Its all a mter of preference and training. If all you train with is katana then a longsword will probalby feel like a sharp crowbar. And vice versa. I've handled both and I can say I prefer the balance of a longsword/b@stardsword and lighter greteswords to that of a katana.
I have never touched a katana, so I cannot compare, but: -My sword has its balance point some 10cm out from the crossguard, weighs about 2,5kg and it's 1m30cm -My friends sword has the same length, weigh about 3kg, and has its blancepoint right on the crossguard. -Where to put the balance isn't that difficult to ajust; it's just a matter of prioritizing balance contra weight, by adding a heavier or lighter pommel. (My blade weigh 900gram) -The way (people today think) the sword was swung from the manuals is arcing forewards into a thrust, before beeing drawn back and down in a kind of draw-cut. When cutting like this, the location of the balancepoint isn't as crucial as if you swing the sword downwards from the shoulder in one sweep.
The blance for my gretesword is about 4 inches/10 cm and it weighs 3 pounds/ 1.4 kg and is 64 inces / 1m63cm. Its nasty againts lot of stuff like polearms and twin weapons. I think there is wider variance of weigh and balance in western swords than in katana, but would have to do some research
Library If anyone wants to find out more about European swordsmanship then you can download some manuals from here: aemma library including George Silvers 'Paradoxes of Defence'
The Link Between East and West I would like to know if anyone knows anything about Spanish swordplay. You see, according to our history books, most of the original, primitive (I am not using the word "primitive" to mean under-developed and bad, more like, before assimilation with other MAs) FMAs were were combined and/or assimilated with European swordplay, making a hybrid that became Arnis/Escrima, reportedly more effective than either alone. Our national hero, Jose Rizal, is translated as being adept at fencing, but he called it Escrima, and he used a walking cane for fighting, that is, solo baston. So here is supposedly a very real link between the Western and Eastern Martial Arts; but I want to make sure and I don't have the research. I have downloaded the free Longsword Combat manual from AEMMA, and the angles of attack are eerily similar to the Escrima I train in. Also, my Kampilan (what should be the Filipino equivalent of a broadsword, except that it is sharpened on only one edge) has the heft roughly in between that of a Katana and a European broadsword (but I have only handled one broadsword, so that info might not be very reliable). Thanks for any enlightenment.
