Erle and controversy

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by nzric, Sep 22, 2003.

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  1. Kat

    Kat Valued Member

    Actually Choys is gone:eek: ,But Kam Fook(I think its just changed names) on top of Market city is still good value.Happy to come to a Yum Chat, any morning is good( I live in Pyrmont)lets see how many Sydney boys we can get.
  2. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Oh man! No Choys??? Kam FooK? Is that the place in Market City where on Sat mornings theres a line to get in and they yell names and numbers over the loudspeaker before you get seated?

    I used to live in Bowman St if you know where that is, in the last little row of terraces there. It used to look out over Black Wattle bay and the old Sydney Water Rats down below. Great area but the contruction factor is pretty full on these days.

    Any morning good for you? O.k then. E-mail me so we can exchange numbers and let's see who we can get together for a bit of fun.
  3. Kat

    Kat Valued Member

    Thats the place,if you get there before 11am you can walk straight in,also helps if you can speak Canto.I will give you a email.
  4. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Great idea, just say the day. I'm out on Saturdays from 9 till 3:30 but Sundays are usually good for me. Work during the week but I may be able to stretch a day off.

    It'd be good to meet in a park somewhere, try out some forms, then go up to eat and yarn somewhere around Market City once we work up an appetite.

    My email's if we're making a list - probably best to get a show of hands first and some times that everyone's free.
  5. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami


    I'm making a list as we speak. I'll mail you
    about the current low down and probable outcomes.
  6. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    What others say about Erle

    Just sharing what I found from another MA forum, you already know the good stuff, so here's the less savoury stuff:
    tekshow said :
    “……….. watching Erle’s videos, and seeing his students. mr. montague is CLOSE... very close to the essence of real taiji and its martial applications....

    some of his tech seems a little SLOPPY , but conceptually i think he has a ton to offer and his MASS MARKET ABILITY through the web is MIND NUMBING

    Klaus said :
    “……….Compared to this, Erle moves somewhat sloppy.
    “…….But real internal fighting manouvres are LIGHTYEARS from what I saw on tape done from Erle. “
    Braden said: “………..You might want to be careful with second-hand information about Erle though. He has alot of 'overly zealous' supporters who say some 'remarkable' things. It's best to base your attacks off of things he personally has claimed. Not that I'm saying this is or isn't the case here.

    Ffab said :
    “Never return any of my mails and I asked politely if he wanted to discuss about his practice and historical views.”
    Ffab said:

    1.Mr Montaigue seems to have studied intermittently from 1964 til now. It seems that most of Mr Montaigue skills are self-taught.

    2.Mr Montaigue travelled quite extensively, including to Hong-Kong and China where he received some instruction.

    3.The duration of those instructions is not specified and we can only guess that it was not longer than a year each time. [thus point 1]

  7. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    More about the Erle Controvesy

    …The rest of it seems really stupid. Erle has his head gutting out ahead of his body and his shoulders raised as high as possible in the pictures of him with the wooden-man.

    ……..Erle seems to be suffering from the exact problem he's complaining others suffer from. I think he's a scam artist.

    ……I've seen a number of real taiji masters (my own teacher - Fei Yuliang - for example is recognized in china as a taiji master and was a personal student with the Yang and Chen family, as was his father), and what Erle does is something completely different. I'm not talking about forms, everyone can learn a form, i'me talking about the way he moves and applies his 'art'.

    …. Watch his videos on bagua on his site. He walks the circle like a beginner for balance and whole body power is not there.

    ……This article which calls a "typical bagua defence sequence" where he machineguns his partner, where's the bagua? Did I miss it?
    Shane said:
    Did you like it when Erle said his daughter regularly knocks him out while playing around with DimMak techniques? And how his wife has to sleep in a seperate bed because he has so much 'Chi' his limbs fly about while he sleeps?
    I mean, come on. The guy's a nut.
    Henry Lee said:
    was not very specific or informative, only saying to hold each posture for 5 minutes and that you would "shake violently" and if it "hurt like hell" you were doing it correctly. That is contrary to anything i have ever been taught concerning ch'i kung. Also, watching him walk the circle and listening to him explain what to do and how to do it was a source of amusement. The same goes for his so called "linear" set. It really appeared to me that erle was making it up as he went along. I could be totally wrong and Erle may very well be the greatest martial artist of all time, but I won't be wasting my time practicing anything he has to teach.

    Bob said :
    I've spent nearly $16,000 on tapes of his and seminars. A person once TOLD ME that Earl M. can explode rabbits from 14 feet away but wont because his daughter loves rabbits.
    With that kind of skill and a heart like that,
    (not to mention the price tag)how could anyone doubt the truth?
    You guys need serious help.

    Bob said:
    Having watched several Erle Montaigue video's and
    listening to other martial artists whom I respect:
    my opinion is that Erle is a complete quack.
    Henry said:
    hello all,
    thanks for the replies. i wasn't aware that park bok nam had his own topic area for discussion, sorry for posting in the other forum. i see that the consensus is that painter is a charlatan. i was wondering if anyone knew anything about james mcneil and his school? also, i viewed a video on bagwa recently by erle montaigue from australia. it was hilarious to watch and i was amazed that he could even pronounce bagwa! has anyone else seen this video or others by him? it's unfortunate that these so called masters cast a long shadow of doubt on the veracity of internal arts.
  8. xingyiboxer

    xingyiboxer New Member

    Erle Montaigue's Sources

    So I've done a lot of research on this and Erle, and basically it comes down to this.

    Erle IS a scam artist. His purported Sydney taiji master never existed. There is absolutely no evidence.

    His main source for his martial arts pre-bagua are from the U.K. He took taiji in the U.K., and then learned Dim Mak from some Praying Mantis guys there. (Paul Whitrod and his teacher).

    He then went to Taiwan, and took Bagua there. He also picked up some other things from a few other people, and then started marketing video tapes, and giving classes.

    His skills aren't terrible, but there isn't cohesion. He picked up things all over there, and then markets it like it's from some secret teacher.

    At any rate, WHATEVER. Since most taiji or bagua people don't do a lot of practical applications for all intents and purposes Erle is as close as most people are going to get.
  9. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Thats interesting. Could you give a bit more info about your sources for where he got his training ( most of his students know he trained in the U.K and the then spent time in Asia etc ) in Dim Mak and point striking and more particularly the total lack of Chang Yiu Chun etc?
  10. xingyiboxer

    xingyiboxer New Member


    Okay. Well, for starters it's no secret about the bagua and taiji.

    Here's one link here.

    His bagua is Gao style bagua as he admits, and it is well known that Gao style was publicly taught in Taiwan by Ho Ho Choy. He took taiji from Chu King-hung in the U.K., who is actually very good.

    The rest I don't have direct evidence of that I can post. Somebody told me that at the same time he studied Dim Mak with Paul Whitrod and his teacher, which makes sense, since the dates match. I don't have direct evidence of this, but somebody told me this, who hasn't lied in the past (and has no reason to lie to make any money).

    It makes sense in addition, not just because the dates match, because Erle uses the same names as those guys to refer to everything 'San sao' 'Dim Mak', etc. If you check carefully, it's guys speaking Cantonese from mainly Hong Kong that use those names, not from mainland China at all.

    So do I have direct evidence his so called secret teacher didn't exist? No. Do I have any evidence at all his secret teacher existed? No. But there's a lot of evidence to point out his forms and techniques to these other teachers, which makes a lot of sense.

    I've asked him directly about this, and of course he denies it up and down (who wouldn't when you have so many books to make money off of and a reputation to uphold).

    At any rate, do the research yourself, and see where the trail leads.

    Oh, and the reason his martial arts aren't quite so polished is he only studied taiji for like 3-4 years and the bagua for only like a year or two. This is why his bagua forms are so bad, but his taiji is better.
  11. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami


    Do you think there would be any way to get in touch with Paul Whitrod and his ( who? ) teacher that you mention so we might verify any of this end of things? I think your logic regarding the naming of techniques leading to HK is sound and I am open to getting to the bottom of certain things myself.

    I have actually done allot of my own research but although there are fishy things in the distant past I have never been able to get a direct response from the parties in the past who are cited or connected... such as Paul Whitrod.

    Let me know anything else you find out.
  12. xingyiboxer

    xingyiboxer New Member

    At any rate, the reason I classify him as a scam artist is if you carefully watch his tapes (and I bought several of them before finding out what's really up with Erle), is that he mostly just talks on his tapes, and when he isn't talking, most of his forms are really bad, and his dim mak is almost totally theoretical.

    That is, he hasn't done many knockouts like Dillman on his videos. He claims Dillman is some freak and Dillman is totally dangerous, yet supposedly Dillman has been doing knockouts for like 20 years.

    His bagua is so bad in terms of form that it's a crying shame. His Wudang forms are equally as bad. It's obvious that he went there, spent a little time learning it, and then started teaching.

    Do you really want to learn from somebody who spent 2 years or less learning something? No.

    But at the same time, there is so little practical usage of taiji, bagua, etc., out there that for most people Erle's all they'll get. Sad but true.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2004
  13. xingyiboxer

    xingyiboxer New Member

    Yes, I should ask Paul Whitrod directly. I think his teacher has passed away, but I'm not sure. I haven't asked him. He must remember a crazy Australian guy.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2004
  14. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Have you read the Dillman article about *why* Erle feels the way he does about Dillman? No matter what you think of Erle I actually think from a medical perspective that Erle is right regarding knocking people out. Any medical person will tell you that everytime you knock a person out that you are doing some kind of irriversable damage to the brain. It's not a good thing to be doing and it is in actual fact dangerous.

    Ali anybody?

    By all means ask Whitrod i'd be fascinated.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2004
  15. xingyiboxer

    xingyiboxer New Member

    No, what Dillman is doing doesn't seem to be knocking somebody out like in the traditional medical sense.

    In the traditional medical sense, most knockouts occur due to trauma to the brain, or a lack of oxygen to the brain, etc.

    If you look at what Dillman is doing, it seems to be that he is using the body's natural pain response mechanism. If too much stimulation goes to the brain, the person loses consciousness for a period of time. It's a natural reaction to keep the person from hurting themselves further.

    Where's the trauma? The main example that Erle uses is the carotid artery. Yes, if you damage that artery, or loose plaque, then it's possible that could cause a problem. Yet, how many of Dillman's students have gotten a stroke from what he's doing? Zero.

    Even the example on Erle's website the guy's saying he had some swelling that lasted like a day. BIG FREAKING DEAL. A bit of swelling and a red spot. Oh, horror of horrors. I've gotten much worse than that just at karate tournaments, like bruises that lasted for weeks.

    So I'm sorry, but I just don't believe Erle. He speaks from theory and not experience like many other so-called 'masters'.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2004
  16. xingyiboxer

    xingyiboxer New Member

    From Erle's site:

    "I (Erle Montaigue) have still not been able to play guitar or perform single handed weapons forms due to a suspected broken right ring finger caused by Mr. Dillman when he asked for my hand to demonstrate a point and was given it freely and in trust. He took a wristlock, (allowed by myself in trust) and with great speed and power took my hand with me following to the ground, I believe breaking my third knuckle of my right ring finger."

    Okay ... I've been in seminars where people have broken fingers, toes, and arms. I myself have broken arms in seminars. (Actually broken arm and fractured wrist).

    "Glen Turner:

    On Saturday 1-7-89 I attended the George Dillman Pressure Points Seminar at Macquarie University. During the course of the seminar, I had various wrist locks and pressure point manipulations performed on me and was "knocked out" by Mr. Dillman on two occasions, only one of which I volunteered for. The knockouts were done with strikes to the right side of my neck on the first occasion and to the left side of my neck the second time. I was also struck several times on the right side of my neck on the harder muscular area as a means of demonstrating how I could take strikes to the neck without the knockout because the points weren't taken (see text for explanation Author:) or manipulated correctly.

    As far as after effects are concerned, the right side of my neck was swollen and puffy several hours after the seminar and did not subside until Monday morning. With the swelling was some bruising, which was painful till about the following Wednesday. The only other effects I experienced was a bruised left triceps muscle, the result of a fairly heavy blow to a pressure point (TW 12, See Text Author:) on the back of my left arm. Also, the inside of my right biceps was bruised after the manipulation of a point which Mr. Dillman told me was on my heart meridian. (H 6 and very dangerous! Author:)"

    Oh, big deal. Bruising, pain and swelling! Horror of horrors! Good grief, does this guy do karate or sewing? I've had worse than that just after a sparring session in a regular karate class.
  17. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Being knocked out and feinting are very different things. If you are knocked out, no matter what the method, you are under and the lights are out in which case from a medical point of view it ain't good. Knocking people out left right and centre isn't good practice and personally I agree that it's not responsible. I feel you can demonstrate the how without the doing.

    Talk to *any* doctor or medical professional. Losing consciousness is dangerous no matter how you slice it. If somebody volunteers then fine ... I wouldn't allow it. But we digress. If you feel broken bones and being knocked out should be worn like a badge of validity then fine, but this has nothing to do with verifying anybodies effectiveness in a martial art. Sitting ducks aren't a good example of applying a technique either. Compliance is a big problem.

    Again we digress. You have made your mind up about Erle whereas I have not , I am open. I have trained within the WTBA under Keith Brown ... have you trained in the system or did you only look at tapes?
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2004
  18. xingyiboxer

    xingyiboxer New Member

    As for Ali, the reason he's so messed up is repeated shaking of the brain, which causes a lot of trauma to the brain. Repeated trauma to the brain, which can also traumatize the blood vessels that feed the brain, can cause not only long term injury to the brain (which Ali suffers from), but also internal bleeding to the brain, which isn't pretty.

    That type of knockout and concussion, of course, can cause long term health problems. Many boxers get this because of the repeated impacts to the brain.
  19. xingyiboxer

    xingyiboxer New Member

    No, I haven't trained WTBA and I don't plan to. Training under a 'master' with only 3-4 years of experience with a teacher and a system is bad enough, but training under somebody who trained under somebody with only 3-4 years of experience is a CRIME.

    It's a bit sad I spent as much as I did ($500) on Erle's tapes, but at least now I have a good baseline of what is bad skill, and a bunch of tapes to laugh at.

    For the record, I don't think Dillman is that great either. It's too bad he didn't spend more time under Oyata and now just gives seminars where he spends most of the time talking people's ears off. He and Erle are pretty much tied in the verbosity levels.
  20. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    I agree regarding Ali but nearly every type of knock out that a fighter will contend with will not be pure points either. A strike to the corotid will also involve trauma to the head unless it's a choke out. Any loss of consciousness is bad news for the brain.
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