Empty hand

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by ap Oweyn, Aug 4, 2014.

  1. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Couple of questions to discuss:

    1) What do you call the empty hand component of your practice? This is just idle curiosity. My previous schools have used a few different terms. Mano mano and pangamot in Doce Pares. Panantukan in Inosanto Blend. I believe the Modern Arnis folks also use mano mano. But I honestly don't remember at the moment.

    2) Here's the real question. How do you train empty hand? Primarily through drills (e.g., hubud)? Abedecario? Sparring?

    Do you do empty hand versus empty hand primarily? Or versus weapons? If you're sparring, what equipment do you use?

    Does empty hand tend to look like anything else? How about the sparring? What's distinctive about it, if anything? Does it look like muay thai with guntings added in? Etc.

    Have at it.
  2. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    Great topic!

    1) I kinda don't know. Empty hands I guess. We have three languages going on in the club (Finn, Eng and sometimes a bit of Swedish). I'm sure when we speak English we use the term empty hands. I sometimes call it panatukan as that's the word I first heard and have stuck with it. But my memory is terrible.

    2) Through drills and abedecario. We don't do much sparring.

    We mix it up. Sometimes empty hand versus empty hand and sometimes weapon versus empty hand (or is it empty hand verses weapon?) But a bit of everything.

    I couldn't really describe how the BIFF eskrima I do looks, but PTK (we have two systems in the club) always reminds me of silat, but perhaps a bit more direct.

    I'd love to get into the "thai boxing with guntings"/dirty boxing stuff,even if they do look like they only have one technique, but it's unavailable.
  3. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    It's been on my mind lately because I have so little time for this sort of thing. And the idea of my being an encyclopedia of the styles I've practiced seems ridiculous to me. I'll be lucky to carve out enough time for a small subset of what I've supposedly learned over the years.

    But if I were to do just that, empty hand is what interests me most at this point. But FMA-flavoured empty hand, that said.

    I'm starting to mentally build out what I'd want to spend my limited time doing. And it begins with jettisoning things that seem too fanciful or dependent on compliance. I've always enjoyed the self-evidence of kickboxing and think it makes a good chassis on which to weld other things.
  4. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    That's why I like the dirty boxing/MT with guntings type stuff. You have the kickboxing (whatever type) and all the pros and benefits of those systems and then a little extra with the guntings, defanging, sweeps etc.

    If I had to really focus on one area of FMA, I quite honestly wouldn't know what to go with. I like the empty hand stuff, but tomahawks are such an interesting and versatile weapon. As you know, I train for fun, so the interest factor is high...I'd probably go with the tomahawk....possibly. :)
  5. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    You gotta order one of those training tomahawks I told you about. So I can vicariously swing a tomahawk. ;)
  6. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    I got the Cold Steel ones ages. But you obviously don't care or you would have read my post in the tomahawk and axes thread. ;)
  7. ritche-stl

    ritche-stl Valued Member

    1. I practice Balintawak, WOTBAG group. As far as empty-hand, it’s mostly taken from various parts of stick training. I don’t think we do have a specific term for it, my teacher’s teacher uses the term “barehands” a lot when he refers to empty-hands applications.

    2. It’s developed mainly thru stick training. We train it similar way as the stick thru “agak”, which is a counter-to-counter drilling. The nature of the stick training is such that you’re always training your empty-hand or “alive” hand to grab and control, hit, do the set-up for your weapon hand to hit or set-up for a lock or takedown. So whether you have a weapon or not it doesn’t really matter a whole let since it’s the alive hand that is doing most of the job and you fight in the same range. Of course one difference is you could hit a lot harder/deadlier with a weapon in your hand. On the other hand you will have more options when your “weapon” hand is not holding anything anymore.

    It could look like boxing especially in head movement. Not much sparring but mostly “agak”.
  8. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Sorry, did you say something?

  9. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    Someone tell ap I will be in the gig thread if he wants to talk to me.

    Seriously - I was thinking of getting the ones you told me about, but they have gone mad here with taxing imported goods from non-EU countries. I think anything over 24 euros (inc. postage) and you get taxed on it. I went with a cheaper option from Germany. Not as nice looking but they do the job.

    Edit: And of course...I bought two.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
  10. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    At our class in London, we generally have 3 stages of training for any given format or drill:-

    Static - padwork, combinations, partner drills, etc...

    Dynamic - adding movement, broken timing, instructional sparring, etc...

    Free - sparring, scenario training, multi-opps, etc...

    For instance, let's say i was training Hubud v2 from the Rapid Arnis System (vs straight punch: Lead hand parry, rear hand pass, lead hand trap), my 3-stage process could go something like this:-

    Stage 1: Hubud v2 flow-drill; add striking; add evasion/movement; add broken timing.
    Stage 2: Instructional sparring - straight punches only from aggressor. Switch roles after 3 clean headshots (PPE provided).
    Stage 3: Free sparring (can add kicks, clinchwork, grappling, depending on available PPE) with various victory-conditions.

    For FMA applications, i find it's best to use MMA gloves. Boxing gloves allow the luxury of just covering up, whereas MMA gloves encourage a much more offensive game.

    It's interesting to do things this way, because students realise that the original technique doesn't often have the time-frame needed to complete all 3 movements (parry, pass, trap) when they're fighting a mobile and resisting opponent. And so they must adapt, and choose the right time to deliver the technique. They also need to accelerate their action significantly, and may need to improvise in order to make the technique useful - for instance, when playing an outside game, most students will only use the parry movement (combined with a strike = gunting), as the dynamics of the opponent do not allow them to close easily most of the time. Eventually though the more experienced students learn how to engineer the situation to force a committed action from their opponent, and then can use the remaining 66% of the technique to close.

    If i was to offer any criticism, it's that some clubs never go beyond stage 1 of the process. Whilst students may learn the technique, they never learn to apply it in real-time with movement (stage 2) or against a capable and resistant opponent (stage 3). Without the application then, it's a bit like having a pen (a useful tool) without the knowledge of how to write (application) or read (reactive application).
  11. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Great post, Janno. When I get work under control, I want to come back to this properly.

    So, you know, about a year from now. ;)
  12. tim_stl

    tim_stl Valued Member

    Depending on what aspect, it's called buno, suntukan, sikaran, sikadtukan, or arnis. As far as an overall term for fighting without a weapon, we don't really use one. We train abecedario, drills, and sparring - none of them is really primary. We do train it against empty hand, and also against weapons. Equipment is possibly gloves, wooden knife, padded stick, or nothing, depending on what we want out of the sparring.

    Empty-hand training comes from two directions: one is the weapon training, which teaches footwork, posture, distance, timing, and close-range manipulations like holding, disarming, locking, and throwing - to this is added the basics of striking without a weapon. The other direction is from wrestling, which teaches clinching, throwing, pinning, escaping, ground movement, rolling, locking and choking and striking (ground and standing).

    As far as what it looks like - if you don't know what you're looking at, I guess it looks like a weird mix of boxing, wrestling, jujitsu, and maybe silat or basic gymnastics or whatever. It's hard to say, because to me it just looks like Garimot.

  13. am1t0

    am1t0 New Member

    Not sure I agree with the 'MT with guntings' line as I like to emphasise my students to develop more mobility, punching combinations and off-timing (pulls,pushes and low line disruptions). Also a lot of monitoring of the lead or rear hand. Stuff that generally sets unarmed FMA apart from thai boxing.

    Also the unarmed stuff I do with my guys tends to flow in and out of grappling (dumog) as required. Certain positions are used as a reference point e.g. hacking, from which I emphasise that they have the option of continuing with boxing flurries or opting for linakun throwing motions (a type of throwing that feels unique to FMA), or grappling and locking.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2014

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