Are there any effective knife defence techniques and drills? I mean real tried and tested. Pretty well everything i've seen in the dojo or at seminars or on the web looks pretty useless. Too slow, too much compliance, too many wrist grabs (aren't they just for people who don't want to keep their fingers), too reliant on unrealistic forms of attack, too complicated to be practical under pressure etc etc. My feeling is that they probably don't exist and i've said as much on a few threads, but this is really based on what i haven't seen rather than a lot of personal experience. Here's an example, my friend has just started training Karate (Shukokai??) and one of the first techniques he was shown was a knife defence- twist to the outside, block and grab/pull at wrist, push at elbow. He showed me this and i said it wouldn't work and he looked at me and seriously said "but is elbow is broken..." i didn't know where to start until my partner, who knows nothing about martial arts said "looks like a good way to slit your wrist". I guess there must be techniques and ways of training 'for real', can anybody point me in the direction of them? I'm not bothered about how cool they look or what art they're from, just do they work? I know there are no guarantees but i've had a look at Youtube and i find most of it quite frankly, unbelievable. Here's a few- at least the attitiude seems right. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWQfgwuOAxo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWQfgwuOAxo[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWhPa2tqHjY"]YouTube- knife defence[/ame] (this one made me smile, still a lot of wrist grabbing though). [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFMvgM8PcY4"]YouTube- FCS kali knife defence lesson #1[/ame] I thought Koyo's technique in this thread seemed more pragmatic than most, and note- no wrist grab!http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92841&page=3 Any suggestions for escalating drills, or video or techniques all welcome Diolch/cheers
I think clip one shows the reality of most knife attacks (low level, repeated, short jabs in very rapid succession) and why it's so damn terrifying. It can come from nowhere, requires little movement to wind up the technique and will be devestating. It also shows the minimum training methodology for all self defence work. Mitch
Pretty much any knife defence is going to involve taking hold of the wrist at some stage, simply because you can't afford to have a bladed weapon flailing around at the end of an uncontrolled limb. The way to defend against a knife is simple in theory: avoid the blade, isolate the weapon, attack the wielder and disarm the blade. The problem is that actually pulling off these building blocks is extremely difficult even against an untrained attacker, let alone against someone that has even a basic idea of what they're doing. In terms of what to expect with a successful knife defence, it's to only get cut in non-critical places. The simple fact is that if you get attacked with a knife, you are very likely going to be bleeding by the end of the engagement, so the idea is to restrict the damage to places which aren't going to kill you, like the edges and topsides of your arms (which you therefore use to block and parry with). There simply are no guaranteed knife defences other than to have a projectile weapon and the space to use it, and even then you need to be a good enough shot to put them down. If you think of every knife defence as a very much last resort where all your other self defence training has gone wrong, you'll realise why possibly getting your fingers or arms cut is better than failing to have adequate control over the wrist.
the best defence against a knife is to run Im afraid however I do agree with you most knife defence techniques taught are next to useless, over complicated and dangerous in my experience and I really don't like training in them. although I have seen alot of practical krav maga (something I have always wanted to try) techniques that look pretty practical and effective primerally because they are usually more concerned with getting you out of the way of the knife and making the attacker drop in a quick simple motion as opposed to an arm/wrist grab technique with many different movements intended to take the attacker to the ground which seems to me what most other martial arts teach
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WjSTIcE0cE&feature=channel"]YouTube- Shock Knife Fight[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v0J5B63e3U"]YouTube- Knife attack training : basics with a red marker[/ame]
the most decent looking things I've seen on the market regarding last ditch weapons defence/survival tactics are the dog brothers - die less often SBGi - STAB
The sytema technique? It would be simpler to knock the knife aside and use that momentum to grab his head and smack it into the wall. The first videos the guy should have been struck while he was talking..defending against more than one thrust you have already lost. The second video Good for a laugh. If you wish to be capable of defending against a knife you must get off line and attack in the same instant if possible before he can even begin to bring the knife into play. Do as much damage as possible BEFORE disarming. Funny story. One time a local ned was growling at me to no avail when he opened his jacket to show me the knife he was going to"Stick in me." I simply pulled it out of his belt and "suggested he leave." That is the ONLY funny story about knifes.If possible avoid and NEVER accept the idea that "you will get cut" any action must be 100% attack and confidently. Plenty of time later to worry about it. The infamous grab the wrist and twist it usually sees the "expert" twisting the knife in a large circle narrowly missing his own throat. If you are fortunate enough to grab the knife hand then turn the knife (still in his hand) onto the attacker. EVERY empty hand technique we train in is repeated against a knife if it is found wanting it is discarded leaving us with just a few pragmatic technique or to more specific PRINCIPLES to train in. Body alignment is THE most important element and fight/attack the man as a whole not concentrating only on the knife (he has anothetr hand,feet knees and elbow AND possible friends. I hold a teaching licence in sword and stick from Morihiro Saito and it is from training in these weapons that the timing and body alignment come from. Plus twenty odd years working in deprived areas of Glasgow. STILL I hesitate to "teach" knife defence because I CANNOT replicate the trauma involved. Below the entry (he is about to receive an elbow in the face as I enter) and the disarm.HESITATE for an instant and all bets are off.
Looking at the videos again, it seems to me that the main problem with the first one is that although the intensity of the actual training looks good, they all missed the first opportunity to 'nip it in the bud' before the knife was drawn. I thought the analysis in the shocknife clip was good, but the scenario a little unreal- would it really be feasible to focus all that effort solely on the disarm? Cheers for all the comments.
As soon as the guy grabbed the knife with BOTH hands he would have gotten a left hook PLUS the giggling and having fun was ridiculous. The second video..the knife was all over the place..watch it again and see how often he could have fallen on it or just a slight movement would have cut him. I am certain that there are many "experts" in taking wooden knifes, shock knifes and red markers from people. A real knife..even an "expert" will get cut/killed if he has enough fights. Another reason I would not consider myself expert at defending against a knife. BUT you got to do something.
what a brilliant question, and an important post. Here are my two cents... First of all let's talk techniques. Let's face it nearly every single knife technique out there that i have ever been shown will get you killed. as already pointed out there is too much compliance from the attacker in training, the attacks themselves genrally don't tend to be realistic (think front stance into lunge and the hold) either. Secondly, let's look at the defender. Let's be honest here boys and girls, most people have never had a real knife waved in their faces with the intent to either truely scare or actually harm, so everything we do is hypothetical anyway. Unless you are a master at controlling your state and aren't completely phased by the blade itself then again most techniques and drills will become irrelevant because anxiety will kick in Thirdly, there is the idea of knife 'defence'. I honstly belive that trying to defend a knife attack will get you killed. I believe that you have to switch to an attacking state and shut their attack down, it's a bit of a power play as it will be the last thing they expect and can potentially render them powerless. I'm not saying this isn't dangerous, but it's no more dangerous then waiting for the guy to slash at you. You stand more of a chance if you take control. I should point out that you also need to get some form of control of the knife and at least know where it is, it go in guns blazing with total disregard for it. Next up there is the illusion of the knife attack itself. Look we are all ecucated people here. We know that this scenario is all hypothetical. If he wants to really stab you he won't show you the knife, he'll do it when your backs turned or when you least expect it. You only have to look into reports of stabbings to see that the majority happen in the back or in a crowd where the knife can't be easily detected. The whole idea of the threat or the attacker allowing you to see the knife is to gain your compliance. Your first defence is to do as you are told but be prepared to resort to violence if it turns sour and he attacks anyway. However I believe that there are drills out there that can give you an edge. None of them are pretty and none of them are guarenteed. The truth is the knife is about as dangerous as it gets and you have to look at the reality of the types of attack you could be facing and your individual capability of being able to cope with that level of threat. Awareness first, co-operation second and violence on your terms as the absolute last resort : )
Michael Janich and Kelly McCann have some excellent knife defense stuff. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PWmRWjDhYw"]YouTube- The Edged Weapon Threat[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXLcbTVLzFs"]YouTube- Jim Grover - Jack Knife Defense[/ame]
Hello hello. As soon as a knife defence is presented with giggling and like a cabaret act..I turn off. People MUST treat it like life or death..or just don't try it. I liked the Jim Grover one.
I don't know, getting stabbed is a serious business... but I don't reckon that an austere reverence of that fact is really necessary at all times during training. I think the material presented is sound and as pragmatic as you can be when dealing with stabby nutter based situations.
Exactly. Also, as Koyo mentioned earlier, endeavor to eliminate the threat before it is produced. The percentage of success dwindles by the second when we talk of knives. Most people died in the rest of the vids shown The reality based guys became swiss cheese while they rolled with the attacker!! Even burt and his tazer knife, watch it again, he died Im certainly nowhere near the most knowledgable guy on this forum, not by a longshot, but they (vids) seem to have lost the plot.. We need to evade-dissable, meaning something broken on the person as with Koyo's demo. A backward step is a step towards your grave is a saying i like to remember.
Despite the high odds stacked against 'winning' a knife fight, let alone surviving one, I still believe that it should be part of any regular self defence programme, partly because the option to submit or run isn't always there, but also because the aspects of good knife defence drills and training methods carry solidly across to unarmed work. I argue my case on page 9 of this old article here: http://www.jissenmag.com/documents/Jissen_Issue_2.pdf
I second Hello, the only training method that I would even consider for any kind of weapons training (excluding firearms) would be the Dog Brothers crazy style antics. In all of the Dog brothers footage, its plain to see that the participants are working hard against each other at all ranges. It is not choreographed or static and you DO get hit, shocked and hurt. It's the most realistic method I have seen thus far,that would go some way to making you more able to defend yourself against an attacker with a weapon. Like all training methods I don't think its full proof but is simply more realistic.
I stumbled across a pretty good example of what happens when you don't train knife defences effectively: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tj02w9vtZA&feature=youtube_gdata"]YouTube- Master Cassar Knife attack throw.mp4[/ame] As stated in my comment on there, the drawback of locking up the arm and throwing is that if the arm even comes slightly loose, that knife has a multitude of stabbing targets, most of which are fatal. The problem here is the attitude to training. Without the attacker actually making life difficult, you can't find out why this is a bad thing. When I train with my partners in knife work, even going slow, if I can wriggle out and cut/stab with the training weapon, I do. It lets the defender know that they've made a mistake and allows them to try and better themselves next time.
Ouch, thats a shocking one isnt it. That guy got gutted.. as the attacker was thrown, instinctively he would have tried to retract his trapped arm.. watch it again.. gutted defender. Why cant they see this themselves!! If someones taking such a large circle wide swing... nevermind. Actually this is a good egsample of how its forward pressure that needs to be applied, again, as in Koyo's demo, it is applied with forward pressure. There is no stationary or backward step in defending these things.
That ridiculous video prompted this post. Warning to aikidoka....I once saw a demonstration where the "ki aikidoka" sat on a chair and countered simultaneous attacks from FOUR "swordsmen". Complete and utter nonsense. BUT many in the crowd applauded!!! "Teaching" knife defence is a great responcibility hence my distaste of the cabaret and joking aspects some use. I became angry when all of the mystical BS came to the fore in aikido and took to wearing a T shirt at seminars that read HARMONISE OR DIE!! When aikido was first introduce,early sixties ALL techniques HAD to be applied as though there was a knife and the possibility of another attacker. How times have changed.:bang: Some of the best training for knife defence is swordwork.no one strikes sooo fast and accurate as a kendoka. Enten jizai is a principle that says your defence (body evasion) MUST carry your attack so that they become one. Evade, redirect or even block the knife but you MUST assert control instantly by aggressive sustained attack.
