[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh2cpAp5wpU"]Masaaki Hatsumi 1 base ninjutsu - YouTube[/ame] At 18:37 there's an example of koku. You can also see a younger SKH doing gaijin butt right at the beginning of the video. See him rise up when he steps forward, where did he learn that?:dunno: Anyway, back to Koku. After you kick, your weight will drop downwards as you go in for the boshiken strike. Here it is important that you don't strike down at an angle but horizontally, you sink to the right height to be able to do so. Just like in jumonji, you often see people doing the boshiken incorrectly and leaving themselves open to some counters and issues with their posture, alignment, and power generation. Oh, and this old thread was about this particular technique, might offer more information: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83592&highlight=koku Perhaps for the next technique, instead of asking for what people want to see, why doesn't someone present(if anyone other than dunc wants to post) a video of a technique they have questions about instead?
Are you sure about the horizontal strike? Soke said once (I know he changes what he says regularly) either strike up or down, an upward strike puts the attacker on their toes and thus they can lose their balance, a downward strike drives them to the ground, a horizontal strike does nothing but drive them away to give them space to come back and attack you again?
You can strike either downwards or upwards with a horizontal strike. The point is not being above the guy and striking down at him but being level and striking horizontally. Just like jumonji. If your stance is too high after you block his first strike in jumonji, you will end up striking down at him, leaving your face wide open and losing power to boot.
Interesting I was taught by a well know menkyo kaiden holder that the strike in jumonji is downward into butsumetsu. I know there were some early Bujinkan guys teaching “horizontal strikes” in jumonji, but that is off topic anyway. How can you “strike upwards or downward with a horizontal strike", it is either upwards, downwards or horizontal, can it be both? Also if Koku is done properly your face is in no possible danger as a.You have disrupted their balance, b.Controlled their spine by locking the koppo and you are either behind them or at least round their side way out of range of the other hand. And yes you should be “above” the attacker as you should have started to lower them with the first shuto, tipped them with the block to the kick and then finished the job with the boshiken, that is the whole idea, ideally with them finishing on the floor.
Hi A big thanks to everyone for the feedback and thoughts - great thread!!! I've been offline for a while (sorry for the delayed response). Which has allowed me to deconstruct my movement and work through everyone's points. Trying to separate the errors from the different flavours/preferences Generally speaking when outside of Japan I've tried to get hold of insights from various sources. I've found over the years that it's best to cross check them with the shihan & soke's movements before trying to incorporate the movements It's been a really interesting exercise & I'll share as I go. When you look stills from the movements that I'm trying to copy you can see the differences quite easily I think Kamae Self evident when you compare the pics side by side I know that it can be gassho-tenchiinyo, but 90+% of the time we start in ichimonji Receiving the punch (I'm trying to do the "sucking in" style) Clearly my right foot's got a bit wonky (likely after my op).... The Shuto (downwards in this case for a like for like comparison) I think I'm over turning (again self evident when you see the pics) On the upwards vs downwards, mostly it's downwards, but 2 of the shihan teach upwards as their basic & I think if you start in ichimonji, then either works. I like upwards because it pushes him back, giving you more time. Downwards can be devastating, but you do risk an attack from the side as you do it. I try to work on both options Here's a slo mo of a couple of examples from the clip - I got an app for that https://vimeo.com/93505758 The kick response As I understand it the whole idea is to position yourself so that the kick is his most likely response. We are learning how to tempt an attacker to do a particular attack so that we are one step ahead My understanding is that there are 2 approaches used in koku: 1. Last minute avoidance. This isn't yokko aruki as it takes too long, but is more of a small rotation, sometimes with a shift of the rear leg. Often with a manipulation of the arm to get the distance. I didn't do this 2. Moving in a bigger way (eg yokko aruki). You have to start the movement as soon as he commits to the kick (which you know is the most likely next move). The idea is to keep giving a target as you move so that he continues the attack. You move yourself to a position/distance where you're just out of reach of his foot regardless of of the fact that he's following you with the kick. I can't do the big yokko aruki movement at the last minute against a fast kick In the slo mo clip I think I'm a bit close for comfort So the idea that you wait until the last minute for a backwards yokko aruki is news to me, I'd love to see an example as it seems really diffiicult Boshi Ken I understood that it was down and in to drive him away and knock him over if he was settled in his balance. If he was still moving downwards after the kick then you'd hit up and in
You can't punch horizontally and have it affect them either downwards or upwards? It is found in the kiso, kihon, and many kata… So, if you are striking downwards, how would you do it? What would be your foot position, torso position, and arm position? It is very difficult to strike downwards in a jabbing forward way without compromising posture(not to mention exposing your face, just because he is out of position at the end of koku doesn't mean you should do things that wouldn't make sense otherwise), power, and reach(very different from a cutting motion). Horizontal is just the opposite. Your arm extends from your shoulder so if it is striking horizontally, you have the most reach and biomechanics advantage. Of course, you can strike upward(in a jabbing way) as is common in some of our ryu. Kata are done to create certain effects, but not for suicide. If the moves don't work without the added benefit of the effects the moves before are supposed to create, they wouldn't be much use as a teaching tool. If you are in the right position, it makes you hard to hit even if your shuto didn't break his arm, or if he was wearing some kind of clothing or armor that made your strike less effective. Not use what you mean by locking the koppo(this is koshijutsu)? Jumonji is actually quite relevant to this discussion. As can be seen in this video, the strike is horizontal, not downward. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ExPKO2w1RU"]Bujinkan Gyokko Ryu Massaki Hatsumi - YouTube[/ame] from 8:57 As demonstrated by Soke and a well known shihan, the movement is horizontal. If you do an upper block(jodan uke) and then try to jab downwards from that position, your face will be wide open and your strike will lack power. Again, if you were cutting it would be another story, but the boshiken thrust is clearly horizontal.
Cool & interesting - certainly makes sense for jumonji I kinda thought that if the target was below your shoulder (as often happens in koku although target is shishibatsu) then downwards (not vertical of course, but in line with your arm) is quite natural and collapses their legs?
Few ideas. If you are striking him as his foot lands or before, there is no need to drive him down as he will be going there anyway.
The motion of your arm is horizontal though, not downward(as in going from shoulder height to waist height for example). It doesn't have to be parallel to the ground, but it isn't downwards. If you watch the example of Hatsumi sensei demonstrating on a very well known shihan in the last clip I posted, you can clearly see that it is horizontal. In koku, you sink as you step so you are already down, no need to strike further down from there. At :40 seconds into your slo-mo video you can see that your arm is leading the strike so that it is already going downward before your foot is moving to ground you. This is what I mean by losing power and leaving your upper body/head wide open for attack. Of course in this situation it probably wouldn't happen, but it is a bad habit to create. If you strike as your foot sinks and settles, you will have more power because it will be driving into him. Same thing for jumonji, you are sinking or sunk and lower than him(either when he punches or as you evade), so your footwork and sinking do the sinking for you. If done correctly, you are further away from both of his arms than it appears.
It will take me a while to sort my makeup Dunc is doing such a good job though. I'd also like to see other x-kans post their takes on things, and independents.
Dug out an old clip of the upwards shuto You can see the point that PR is making about not using the left hand quite clearly. I think I'm trying too hard to hit the arm which is affecting the whole movement and interaction
The upwards angle means your wrist has to be cocked upwards and crossing your body that way isn't as safe or strong a strike as downward. Because of that, you have to really pack something behind the strike to have any effect and as seen in the picture of Noguchi sensei above, the blow only really took the arm offline but didn't affect uke's structure that much. It also places your left hand out of the fight. Another point about the shuto, if you do it and both freeze in place, his rear hand should not be able to hit your face without him taking a step. Due to your angling and positioning, you should look close enough to hit but not be. If he can reach you with just twisting his hips more and doing a reverse punch, your distancing is off(even if you are too close but in the right kamae however, you will still be better protected-hence jumonji). However, if you look at the picture of Noguchi sensei, the shuto has spun the uke and his rear hand is closer than it is in the examples of the downward shuto you posted earlier. Partly it has to do with the shuto going too much sidewards and not enough diagonally into him(which would affect his balance but wouldn't spin his torso), and partly it has to do with the way Noguchi sensei shifted back in. I wouldn't recommend this way of doing koku because it creates unnecessary work for oneself. Gyokko ryu teaches you about nothingness, the void, using kukan, and making traps from apparent weakness. It teaches us to use less effort and power to create more effect and confuse and bewilder our opponents. A lot of the techniques have attacks coming from close in and one has to move like muto dori to perform them correctly so one has to wait till the last moment, move elusively, and counter all at once. More like flitting around like a butterfly than jumping in and pouncing like a tiger. One's performance of the techniques should match the spirit and feeling of the school as well as just the technical order of movements. Not an easy task.
Nice points and thanks I think Noguchi Sensei is well covered from the rear hand from both his distance and the position of his shoulder and arm. I am not so well positioned....
Notice the difference in distance between Noguchi sensei's front foot and his opponent's front foot and then note yours. Haven't seen the video but I'm thinking Noguchi was striking 90 degrees into the kyusho while you were coming in at an angle that brought you that much closer to your opponent. The extra space comes gives you more time to wait out the opponent when he goes to kick.
One more point about your photo compared to Noguchi sensei's. If you were more erect, your head would be at least half a foot further away as a target. Can't tell without seeing the video but in either case, the upward is more dangerous than downward. A rising koppoken would make more sense and keep your elbow in position to guard but anyways, I think you get my points. The footwork I've been taught is very different however, it doesn't expose your groin in the same way and it is easy to do the cross step from there either in front or behind yourself. It also has you facing more towards your opponent after the shuto, though you are to his right. Both hands are in play and you are safe though apparently open for the kick. ps-since we're on a roll, might as well do Renyo next(unless you've got other things planned).
From your clip you can clearly see the from 9:24 Sokes's strike is "not" horizontal. Anyhow as Soke says, you cant learn what he teaches from videos and he has said many times not to study his early videos. The downward jab is very simple to instigate and use with good effect without compromising safety, especially if it is done correctly with the counter kick rotating the attacker so they expose their back and cant attack from the front.
Look at all the times it's demonstrated, both by Nagato sensei and soke, you will see horizontal strikes((9:09, 9:30 are completely parallel to the ground=horizontal). Not sure how that isn't obvious.:dunno: Nobody is talking about learning from videos, just common sense and power generation(plus protecting your vulnerable parts as you strike). If you think a downward strike is better, why don't you post a video of yourself doing it with an uke and show us how from a jodan uke position for example, you can drop your arm into a downwards strike while not exposing your head to a counter blow. Also, show us how it is more powerful. Again, with Koku, the opponent should be off balance and facing the wrong direction, but if you botch the counter kick and try a downward strike, your head is quite exposed.
