Hi All, Does anyone know of any documented duels between the portuguese and the samurai during the 1500s and 1600s? Did any of the Koryu arts adapt after encountering the western style of swordsmanship. I have heard some stories but no documented info, anyone got any sources? The Bear.
Interesting question. I've not got a direct answer for it... but I wonder if much of the lack of information on the subject doesn't come down the Portuguese showing up to a sword fight with firearms - around 1543. I think places your most likely to come across info would be the period following the The Shimabara Rebellion, a Christian uprising in 1637 which marked the height of hostilities between the bakufu government led by Toyotomi Hideyoshi and the Christian Portuguese and their supporters. I'd wonder if there was actually enough swordplay between actual Portuguese and Japanese or was it sword versus rifle? Was it a case of the Japanese based in and around Nagasaki doing the actual sword to sword fighting against the soldiers of the bakufu government?
There were no rifles at this point. Matchlock muskets and arquebus until 1630. So I would assume it would have come to sword point pretty quickly in any engagement. The Bear.
Ah right right... arquebus was what I meant.. not rifle. Would it have come to sword point so quickly though? Surely there was still the bow and arrow to contend with and the Japanese were well versed in repelling and attacking with bow and arrow. Or would that have only been for much larger battles?
A duel wouldn't have been settled by a bow or a musket. Even in Europe at this period swords were the preferred duelling weapon. The Bear.
There's something on e-budo about this I think. Can't for the life of me remember where it is though.
Will do. I'm looking now. If I remember there was some humours stories in the thread, can't say how much grounding they had in reality though. Stuff like the captains of the ships making complaints that the Samurai were fighting in a un-gentlemanly manner. They had the audacity to keep chopping the other guys arm off once he took up a fencing stance That and the Portuguese couldn’t get their head round Jodan no Kamae. Don't have a clue how true it is.
Yeah I can get similar stuff form the WMA side closest was talk of 17 recorded duels with portuguese winning all of them. Which I simply don't buy. The Bear.
Ah right... I misread... you're after info on duels. I suspect there weren't many if any duels going on. I could be wrong but if the Portuguese were there to trade chances are they weren't going to be challenging Samurai to duels in any amount enough to change Japanese swordsmanship/technique to any real level. I suspect it's more of a case of larger forces going at rather than personal duels between a samurai and Portuguese swordsmen. But maybe somebody will post something. I'm guessing that most of the information on that issue will have been recorded by the Jesuits or maybe... maybe... a trader. But they're certainly not going to know what the Japanese did in response as far as methods of swordsmanship and technique go. I don't think you're going to find any mention in Japanese records in response to duels if there were any. I think the samurai's pride/notion of themselves makes that highly improbable.
Hi Bear Among the many legends of Minamoto Musashi there is one of him defeating a "foreign swordsman" at Nagasaki. I have the television series sorekawa musashi (something else I did not show you) :Angel: and the 3rd and 4th episodes are called duel with the foreign sword at nagasaki. However as he also faces Yagyu Jubei (He did not) in the series it is like most legends.. dubious. regards koyo
On that note there may be something to be gleaned from a film starring both Toshiro Mifune and Takashi Shimura. Though as it's a film it could have some refernce to actual duels or just run amok with convenient plots/storylines and creative license.
Same background in the Musahi series only this time it is Sasaki Kojiro's wife who convices a spanish swordsman to challenge Musashi. regards koyo
I find that hard to believe... the same guard is found in nearly any sword tradition in Europe. It's called Vom Tag or Oberhut (in Sutor's crib of Meyer) in German, Posta di Falcone in Italian (Filipo Vadi specifically), and there's a variant in English called Hawke. That being said, you don't see it in rapier fencing, since you're generally not going to do too many cuts. But it also depends on what you mean by rapier. However, any decent swordsman will take one look at Jodan/Vom Tag and know exactly what it's for. There was a guy on the ARMA forum (not an ARMA member that I'm aware of) that's apparently working on finding documentation for those duels. Do a search on it and it's sure to come up. Best regards, -Mark
My friend Gerry Kincais 5th dan kendo took another high grade kendo appart because the fellow was using jodan kamae. Tsuke a direct thrust every time often single handed whenever the guy attempted to attack. The japanese kamae has the sword pointing up where in some of the western sword the point is down. dare I say it.. I prefare the western posture. as you can thrust from it too. regards koyo
Hi Koyo, The German equivalent to Jodan (Vom Tag) is the same with the point angled back, or held over the shoulder, which I think you guys call Hasso no Kamae? At any rate, I much prefer the over the shoulder version as you can close lines faster than over the head, and you close one line entirely on the sword side. If it's over the head, both left and right upper lines are open. The advantage is that your opponent must concern himself with a strike from either side. The German school breaks Vom Tag (either the Hasso/Jodan version) with the Zwerchau (cross strike), which is a high horizontal cut with the back edge with the hilt held high above the head, point angled slightly down, aimed at the target's neck. This forces the opponent in Jodan/Hasso to bind with a descending cut on the blade, giving the attacker a bind to work with. Usually one can then smash aside the blade with the crossguard, allowing a Zwerch to the other side with the front edge. I find that the over the head guard works ok, but especially against inexperienced fencers. You can easily strike a nice Schielhau (Squinting strike) against a cloddish fencer from there, since you'll have plenty of time. The guard you're thinking of is Ochs, which works nicely for thrusting. It is the upper equivalent of Pflug, which is like Chudan. In fact, many of the techniques used from Pflug (i.e. windings) are done in Ochs as well, just covering the high line. Perhaps one in JSA could understand Ochs as a version of Chudan that covers the high line. Most things done in Chudan (assuming you use it similarly to the way we use Pflug) could be done in Ochs as well. In JSA Jodan and Hasso are different guards, but in the German school of longsword they are reckoned the same, and are used in a nearly identical manner. Best regards, -Mark
I have no documentation either. The rumors I've heard, is that the portugeese fought with rapier and dagger-combo, as seen in this manual pic, http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/NewManuals/Agrippa/p059.JPG (from 1553) and that that influenced the samurai(?)to adopt a two sword-system with wakisashi and katana... I've allso heard that rapierists usually wins duels with people with katana, and I don't find that unrealistic, given the fact that a rapier is longer, and offers better hand protection. So given that both are of equal skill, I say that statistics should make the rapierist win. My personal and totally unqualified guesses at the topic: Were competent european fencers in Japan in "samuraitime" Yes. Could they have met samurai? Yes Would they engage in duels? Hmmm, that's the one I doubt; both cultures have had a tradition in treating other (inferior) cultures asymetrically. (A brit would probably challenge a fellow european, to a duel, but hardly one of an "inferior/colonial" race... The ironic thing is that I get the feeling that the japaneese would treat "european gajin" with the same reluctance, and perhaps wouldn't grant an european the Honour of fighting a duel.) They still could have influenced eachother; if a samurai saw european officers doing training or duelling with rapier-dagger-combo, they would obviously know enough about swordplay to appreciate advantages (and disadvantages) in a short blade + long blade -combo.
There is a sort of negative evidence that the Japanese were not overly impressed with western sword, in the lack of change on the Japanese side - the Japanese were sufficiently impressed by western guns and armour that the samurai adopted both teppo and namban-do as well as namban hoods to keep the rain off, but they did not adopt the thrusting sword or western fencing, whereas they changed their sword in response to the Mongol armour a few centuries earlier. Also the Japanese did manufacture European style swords for export via the Dutch (see http://www.antiquesandfineart.com/dealers/item.cfm?id=116&pid=10035 for a picture) despite the ban on exporting Japanese weaponry (they show up in dutch antique auctions occasionally) so they definitely could have used them if they wished.
