Does anyone have any " Fred Villari" clips?

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by shaolinmonkmark, Mar 19, 2007.

  1. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Look Dude???? Show a little respect, especially to seniors, should I address you as look little girl or kid? You seem to have a chip on your shoulder from being connected to Mr. Mattera, well, that's your problem, don't make it mine, deal with it. From day one, you have copped an attitude with me for no apparent reason. I never started on you until you drew first blood. You posted once to Gary B. how you had a bad attitude when you started posting but had changed. Changed??? You also wrote in that post that now when you have a problem with someone you take it to a pm whre it belongs, as I wrote to you once before, follow your own advice and if you have a problem with me, do it in a pm not a pms, lol, and stop trying to turn a good thread into a three ring circus! Having said that, Dude, I'll make off this never happened and 'try' to answer your post 'respectfully'.

    Gufbal1981, I am always open minded and willing to change opinions and ideas when appropiate. Okay, I believe your history of how you learned your combinations and you say Armen Heroian ('who came after me'), a student of Art Singer and it was per F.V. and I believe you but you are still talking 1985 California, I' ll get back to this part later. Also, remember, and this is something Ed Parker wrote in a preface for Nick Cerio in regards to Fred Villari. He stated the Villari schools teach Nick Cerio's organized concepts of Kenpo but the further you get away from the original source, the greater the dilution. You state you learned this one step away from Villari, I went over #20 with Villari at a black belt workout..... however, it was 1977. So, I guess you could say it was PER F. V. too, only I heard it directly from the source, not from one of his black belts. Could Mr. Villari have changed it over the years, yes, most definitely.

    Here's Matt Barnes version of #20 (like yours), Matt is a friend and very knowledgable, he is also junior to myself and he originally studied from a Villari offshoot, Masters of Self Defense, Bob Nohelty and Jimmy Bryant, two friends of mine and good guys, highly talented guys. I have had a Masters' student train with me since he was 3rd dan (now 5th), we went over his material and it was different from the original Villari's, no big thing.

    Here's Matt's #20: 20 – (Hai) Against straight punch: Step to 5 o'clock into left cat stance to create distance, push forward with left driving shuto to opponent's bicep with simultaneous right driving shuto to opponent's left collarbone, left arm wraps around opponent's arm above elbow, right arm bar across throat as right leg hocks opponent onto their back, right thrust to jaw, right spear poke to throat.

    The only part that is like the original I had back in the 70's from Mr. V. was the takedown and follow up. That's it, everything else is totally different. The reason why I am comfortable saying #1 combination in my version is this. Here's an example of where I'm coming from. Look at the opening sequence to Honsuki after the breathing exercises, that's done at 9 '0'clock and then mirror image at 3 o'clock. You have 7 strikes working up and down the center line. The first 6 are chambered the same way, for linear punching. The 7th is chambered totally different, from an oblique angle, a different 'concept' of striking. Here's a definition for oblique: 4. not straight or direct, as a course. This is the same chambering used in Villari's #1 and Cerio's version "Sweeping Tiger" and my original Villari's #20. The angle of the strike comes in totally different then the straight strike from the more usual linear chambered position. As I stated before, as you set up to the 'opposite ear or shoulder' chambering postion you must 'sweep' past your opponent's centerline and face, hense, the implied claw that was actually put in the revised material by Cerio, as a compound technique in Mr. Parker's terminology. You are going in that direction anyway so why leave a gap when you can set up the cross knife hand, that way you don't telegraph and you chamber the knife hand for maximum power. Plain and simple.

    You know, Peter Teymourez from your area whom I have a lot of respect for is trained in Villari's SKK (Bill Mailman who was formerly of the Boston area), Shotokan and EPAK. Peter told me that east coast SKK is to the west coast SKK as west coast EPAK is to the east coast EPAK. Take that any way you want it, I'm not going to explain it, you can e-mail Peter, he's easy to find, here ya go:

    Bottom line is, if the 'later' version of #20 fits into your #6 kata that's fine, then that's the way you teach it and practice and if my earlier version fits into mine, so be it, no big thing. Don't get up tight on me asking about the down and upward block and kick in #6 either, I don't know why you are on the defensive, some have asked that question in the past, wouldn't a punch be more suitable than a kick middle level since you would be in close. I just asked what you were taught out of curiosity as there was no hidden agenda on my part, sorry if you felt that way, plain and simple. Well, we are on the same page on that anyway. Mr. Pesare stated that the upward block is done as a full power block to just before the elbow joint, a destructive block, and knocks the opponent backwards and out of range for the hands, therefore the middle level kick. - Joe
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2007
  2. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Just wondering about the state of the Martial Arts
    April 2 2007 at 10:44 AM
    Pat Munk (Login PatMunk)
    from IP address


    Have you ever wondered what the Martial Arts would be like if back in the 80's we would have upheld the standards of our seniors?

    I mean besides everyone going broke. I've often wondered what the state of the arts would be like if no one could start a school without the consent of their instructor or head of the system. Questioning your seniors/instructors was limited to only asking about what was being taught and not challenging what was being taught. If there were no kids under 16 being awarded Black Belts, and techniques remained combat/self-defense style and not sport style.

    If bruises recieved in training were bragging rights and not sue rights, and people trained hard. If training in the martial arts was to learn to protect yourself or your loved ones and not something to do to keep you in shape... Showing disrespect to a senior even from another style got you a royal butt whooping.
    If rank/promotions were EARNED and not sold to whoever had the bucks.

    I know, I know No one would be in business ... but is it really worth it. I mean really ... what have we turned into. You don't have to look very far now-a-days on the net to see the level of disrespect and contempt for others and other systems.

    I only hope that someday we as a martial arts community clean up our act and once again get back to being honorable warriors. We need to put HONOR back into the arts. For without it ... we will only become thugs.

    Pat Munk, Shichidan
    Tracy's Kenpo
  3. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Can't say that dude is all that ****y in the big scheme of things. I can think of a lot of other things that I have been called that seemed far worse. And just remember...

    Sticks and stones may break your bone but names will never hurt you.
  4. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Back to the videos at hand. He does one punch counter, I want to say his is #4. It is #6 for Original Method Kaju so I thought that was pretty funny. We don't do it like that either, but it was close enough to look and start laughing - HEY I KNOW THAT ONE!!!!

    I am not sure where Villari falls in the big scheme of things as far as lineage goes. I am an opponent of video training regardless of style or practitioner. Unless you have no other options (live in the sticks, antarctica, can't get out of bed cause you broke something) then you should be training with someone live. Here is my take on the video preview:

    -Looks like most Kenpo I have seen
    -He doesn't do his stuff or demonstrate it very well
    -The jumping over the fallen attacker to do his groundwork made me giggle like a school girl
    -He needs to lose about 40 lbs
    -Usually in spoilers they try to give you their best stuff so you will be impressed. If this is the case, then he has failed...however, I don't impress as easily as others

    So if this is how you do your stuff, you should really work harder. If those are the techniques that you are doing, but you think you do them better, then great, but you really need to expand your skillset and not your toolbelt.
  5. Pacificshore

    Pacificshore Hit n RUN!

    All I have to say is lets maintain the decorum of this thread. Yes, sticks and stones and all that, but you get more or even further with some respect being shown.
  6. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    This has been talked about before. It is too bad things have got the way they have. Unfortunately, we now have a situation where things DIDN'T go they way that Pat described. So what do we do now? We have 11 year-old black belts, video ranked black belts, diploma mill black belts. So how much respect are we supposed to have for those guys? It's to the point where the muck is so thick that it's ridiculous. Villari, Sullivan, Tracy, Roman, Tatum (among hundreds of others) are all giving out rank via video, so where is the clean-up going to start? Who's going to draw the line and say "These are legitimate and these aren't." ? If I start my own system and promote myself to 10th degree, should others automatically give me the respect that other 10th degree's who've earned it get?

    Bemoaning the loss of integrity is understandable. But where is the actual plan for fixing the situation? Pandora's box has been opened, and like religion in this country, I don't see a neat way of getting it back to the old way.
  7. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Step one: Shut up and train
    Step two: Throw away your belt
  8. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    That'd be one way. The pre-belt world where people just had their students and they would simply train and fight and earn any reputation they had via action would be one way. I don't think most people give a crap about what rank Chuck Lidell is (even though he has rank) because he can kick the crap out of everyone.
  9. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Quote from Dan W.:[/B"Bemoaning the loss of integrity is understandable. But where is the actual plan for fixing the situation? Pandora's box has been opened, and like religion in this country, I don't see a neat way of getting it back to the old way."

    Quote from Dan T.: Step one: "Shut up and train
    Step two: Throw away your belt"

    Quote from Joe S.: "I agree with both statements". :)
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2007
  10. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    I know what you're saying Dan BUT even though it was the written word, I sensed the tone in which it was written, especially from prior encounters. If you used it I would taken it the way you stated. - Joe
  11. meijin10

    meijin10 Valued Member


    I like your post #102,
    I like your post #106
    Most Kempo/Kenpo systems are "Self Defense"oriented. Because the system is self defense based one cannot accrue a win/lose record to prove his worth or quality. If he fought in the streets in the same way that it was done a long time ago a money hungry law suit attorney would show up at his door step.
    The belt ranking system is supposed to be used as a form of quality control. If a school wants to use the belt system for quality control so who are we to say it is wrong. This is far better than to have no form of quality control at all.
    I agree that some will use the belt rank as an ego building thing and, in my opinon, this is a bad thing.
    In many systems there are no requirements for quality control. Their students abilities are varied and inconsistant.
    Everyone has a right to dicide which way they want to go.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2007
  12. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    But when you have no need to demonstrate skill, but rather an array of tools in your toolbelt to attain rank....does that rank mean anything at all anymore?
  13. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Hello Dan (T.), I know you mean't that as a general statement to those viewing the video, but to make myself clear, no, it's not the way I do my stuff personally, I go along with one of Parker's quotes: Every kenpo black belt is a style within themselves. I followed closely the way my original kempo/kenpo instructor moved who groomed me from white to black, with much emphasis on speed, power and accuracy combined with endurance/stamina training and the ability to be able 'to take some, to give some' for in any rerality encounter, as I'm sure you are well aware of, you have to have ability to absorb punishment....just in case, lol.

    Anyone who has ever paired off with Hanshi Craig Seavey (the man I mentioned above) can attest to absorbing punishment and that's no embellsihment. So, as my wife noticed at a Bill Chun Jr. seminar several years back when Craig and I paired off with different partners and were back to back to each other.... she said you guys move alike. It was funny too because much of it was improvision. As far as I'm concerned I couldn't have been paid a higher compliment. When I first saw him move, yes, I wanted to copy him, I admired him, still do. I think we've all been there when we first started, but I don't think I could have done a good job at it if I didn't have the body style and abilities required to do so. Fortunately, it worked for me. Now back to Fred V.

    My personal views about the video, and I watched both videos, not just chosen excerpts but the whole thing to get a more well rounded view, is that he moved much better at his age (around 60 w/ a back problem) then many of those out there in the field today that I have seen video of. Are their some more articulate and anesthetically pleasing? Flashier? Some with nice accoustics/sound effects? Yes but who cares because anyone in reality training will tell you it doesn't mean jack sh_t on the street.

    Fred Villari should stand to lose 40 pounds? Let me say this, I'm 55 and pride myself in my physical condition and not for my age, any age. No brag, just fact. I have seen many, many of a younger man than I, much younger, in my 29 years as an LEO and 34 years in the arts who were in great shape and then years later as they hit into the 30's and 40's, big tubs of lard and some of these guys were very, very athletic "in their day". So, again, my point being no one knows what future body style holds for themselves when they hit 60, do they? And yes, they once said, "not me'. I have seen some of Villari's peers and seniors all over this country who should lose in excess of 100 pounds never mind, 40! and some junior to him also, not only in the arts BUT I mean age too!!!!

    Back in the 70's Fred used to do 'sticky hands' with his black belts at the b.b. workouts and some of his quickest guys had ended up with hand prints on their faces. We also know of Mr. Villari's affinity for kung fu in his advanced forms and so forth. So, I'm sure some or most will say William Cheung moves better than Fred Villari hands down YET do you think William Cheung would have faired any better when his seminar got crashed by one man if it were Fred Villari instead? I think not but that's only my opinion. I have said this before and I stick by it. Martial arts is just that, MARTIAL. It is for combat, self defense field battle, special forces, the street, whatever one chooses to call it and nothing else should matter, everything else is all secondary. The sad part about karate is that many people can go around these days professing to be experts in hand to hand combat and have never got into a real fight in their life! There are still many more out there that have a very limited exposure, very limited.

    Okay, I'm not saying someone doesn't have the right to teach martial arts because they have never rock and rolled before for they could have learned from someone that did but, regardless, everyone should be careful on passing judgement on others because there is no real standard measuring stick out there for reality, of who can really fight and who can't. I have seen names thrown around about guys that can really move, blah, blah, blah, and that's fine and they can move but none of us in the history of the arts as far back as I can remember anyway, have ever seen any of them caught on tape in a real all out encounter and I don't think we ever will.

    Van Damme moves great in the movies and much better than Fred Villari's videos but was a "little" off that night against Chuck Zito when the cameras weren't rolling. By the same token, I'm willing to bet Zito may not move well at all as compared to some of today's masters we've discussed BUT I wonder how many could actually beat him in reality? I wonder??? All I'm saying is let's not be so judgemental because in reality, we really don't know, do we? With respect to all, Joe

    PS: No, I don't agree with video training for ranking.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2007
  14. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Thanks, Gm. Al. Gm. Cunningham stated: The belt ranking system is supposed to be used as a form of quality control. If a school wants to use the belt system for quality control so who are we to say it is wrong. This is far better than to have no form of quality control at all.

    Al, that's a great point too that I have to agree with. Good discussion.- Joe
  15. meijin10

    meijin10 Valued Member


    Built into most ranking systems are the requirements of,
    1) med. - heavy contact sparring,(non professional level),
    2) the ability to free fight,(defend), multi attackers,(Med. contact)
    3) the ability to free fight,(defend) against an armed attecker, (club, knife).
    This will give the "self defense" group the ability to survive a street fight.

    The ring fighters add this into their training,
    A) full power contact strikes,
    B) extensive cardio training,
    C) 16 - 30 hours of on the floor training,
    D) weight training,
    E) heavy impact training/conditioning.
    There is more.
    A win/lose record means how many opponents that you have defeated.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2007
  16. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    so, can "moves well" be relied upon as any kind of criteria for evaluating effectiveness? I mean "moves well" as it is comonly used on-line, that being "looks good when moving"...
  17. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    did go bye-bye?
  18. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Power, speed, timing, form. All are what is important. But in terms of "Looking Good" I think that one only needs to worry about effective execution of a technique. Sometimes that will look good and sometimes it won't. Joe Lewis never "Looked Good" IMO when he was fighting. I remember many opponents of his being interviewed before his PKA matches and they'd be warming up with all of these fancy spinning kicks etc. The fight would start and he'd go plowing into them and knock them out with very basic looking punches and kicks. So much for looking good.
  19. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Dan, you are so right on Joe Lewis, although he got away from the basics in his movie "Force Five" and showed that he could do that fancy stuff too, lol. He is most definitely one of the most respected and feared fighters there ever was in the game. This is no put down to Chuck Norris, whom I feel along with many others, is a very highly talented m.a. and looks better on film than Joe Lewis but, there's that but again, in the money is on Lewis. The street? Like I said before, you never know but in all honesty, I have to favor Mr. Lewis. I don't know, he's just got that 'killer instinct'...bigtime. - Joe
  20. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Joe Lewis X USMC X Okinawan art


    Here is a good location to learn more about him.

    I read an article one time in a book called "The Masters Speak", I was a Joe Lewis fan from that day forth.

    I had read quite a bit about him and he was very much in the news back in the 60's, just about the time I started into MA officially.

    The article was a clincher, I did not read that particular interview until I was in my late 50's.

    I liked him for all the reasons others have mentioned, before I read the article.
    After that it was a no brainer. He is good at what he did and what he said in that article was/is very important, IMHO...


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