do locks really work is something i've read in various threads such as why don't people use these techniques in cage fights etc. the answer is both yes and no ie if executed as a lock as in training probably not,however used in its true martial application as a break then yes, example: wrist throw,outward wrist turn if used as a throw has a good chance of failure because our breakfall is actually our counter and tori uses both hands during the technique,the reallity would be only one hand would hold the hand the other would be used as a palm heel strike to break the wrist in other words so called locks are jerked sharply on and not applied gradually.
Kote gaeshi is the one you're talking about I think, in which case it's not meant to be a throw at all but a breaking of the wrist. You don't need to use a palm heel to break the joint, and doing so means you lose control of the attacker, as one hand on a wrist lock is unlikely to be secure enough to keep the lock on. Best bet is to use both hands on the lock and turn your hips into the technique to apply the break, stepping through as you do so. If your opponent turns into the technique to try to avoid the thwo, the lock can be modified by wrapping your fingers over your opponents and folding the wrist back on itself with that hand while either striking or guarding with the other. This changes the lock from a circular wrist technique to one acting straight down. Requires a little more force to work, but quite effective.
aegis the way you described the throw is just as we practice it in the dojo, any comments this thread brings up are going to be interesting as you can imagin demonstrating is much easier than writing but the point i'm attempting to get across is we don't try to apply a lock we go for the break.
Locks, throws, two different things. Kote Gaeshi isn't a throw, it a technique to break wrists. You don't throw somebody with a wrist lock, you break their wrist. This is a big problem with how people view these techniques. The ukemi for Kote Gaeshi was developed so that full body mechanics can be used whilst practicing the break without actually breaking your training buddy. Cheers. Col
yea, the wrist breaker causes an unbelievable amount of pain. the worst actor ever (steven seagal) proved that in one of his cheap, low-budget karate movies. i think it was "Hard to Kill"
The problem I find-From a 'Real' Fighting perspective-is how would you realistically use Kote Gaeshi? (Yes, I Know how I would use it..) I can work it from a grab, but taught as a counter to a punch (I mean a 'Real' Punch and not a step in and stop), it is optimistic in the extreme. Even with counter-strikes applied first, the initial capture method is lacking realism (Try it against a Real 'Boxing-style' punch and you'll see what I mean). Unfortunately the set-up for this kind of lock is often unrealistic or initially appears so in most arts I've seen it applied in, hence as a lock it could be mis-construed as not being 'effective'. But I argue that it is not the Lock that is in-effective (Clearly it's a good one to break a persons wrist) but the mechanism of delivery can often look 'weak' or too reliant upon supposed compliance and favourable distance in practice. Same goes for many other Locks/ Breaks, they are often seen as being un-realistic because the method of practice often looks flawed.
A lock is simply that: a lock. It implies that you're locking the joint and restricting its range of movement to one degree or another. A lock can be used to "break" - dislocate is usually a more proper term but break is a nice generic one - but they can also be used to restrain/control through pain compliance. Through pain compliance, they can be used to induce the person to fall down - hence a throw. Personally, I don't like restricting myself to one option. I like to keep my options open. The situation and the other person's energy will dictate how I utilize the lock once I have it. As far as locks working - in my experience, I say "absolutely!" I've used them to restrain people, I've used them to disarm people, I've used them to throw people, I've used them to break things. And I've used them successfully (whatever that implies in the context of the situation) in light sparring, heavy full-speed sparring, and fighting. In full-speed sparring, I've locked fingers, wrists, elbows, necks, knees, ankles, and toes. Mike
disarming technique from an overhead cut with a sword. Body movement off the line of the thrust, let the sword pass, deflecting to grabbing of the arm and into the rotation and technique... my 2c
Backhand attack with a weapon, backfist. After an armlock it works very well due to the sudden change in the direction they have to move to avoid the pain.
with this particular thread remember i'm not asking a question but giving my own opinion to questions asked on other threads,kote-gaeshi was just one example another would be hiji-nage,i am enjoying some of the answers so keep them coming.
As I said to you previously in another Ju Jitsu thread. Good Luck if you think that you could apply a Wrist lock in a Real life situation against someone trying to kill you with a sword. Yes, I can do this in the Dojo and look pretty groovy doing it too. But I'm not talking Dojo Conjecture here. I personally feel that most of the anti-blade techniques in JJJ are optimistic in the extreme, but then I feel that way about anything to do with Knife, Sword etc defences in most arts that I have seen. I know full well what you can use these Locks (in this instance Kote Gaeshi) for in a Dojo Context. But clearly Dojo is not Realo. So citing 'oh I could do this or I could do that', is a statement that to me is a tad unrealistic as an example (I'm not singuling you out here Dropbear, just making a general statement). Hell I can do one from a 560 degree jumping spinning doodad kick followed by a somersault, but I wouldn't want to try and pull one off in Real Life (Disclaimer, I can't actually do a 560 degree jumping spinning doodad kick). But I have used Kote Gaeshi in Real situations, from Grabs and Grips, but from a 'Real' punches, forget it (And yes you do see this lock being trained from punches in some JJJ and Hapkido). So I feel that it's a matter of context. Again, it's not that Locks don't work, it's a question of within what context and how to set them up, that to me, is the question. Ie How many times have I got to belt the idiot before I can slap a lock on him? In what context wouldn't I have to belt them first? In what situations do Locks, Ie Kote Gaeshi work 'straight off the bat' without set-up strikes? In what context would such and such lock work best and when would it or is it 'unrealistic' as an application? Much of the answer lyeth in what Guro Mike said.
in most dojo's the advice given as reguards to someone mugging you with a knife or most weapon's come to think of it is that human life is more important than any belongings,the second advice given is that in a knife fight you are going to get cut. as reguards being able to apply kote-gaeshi straight off a punch in a real fight i think the real secret is to be able to keep the attacker's punch moving ie create momentum and make no break in the movement of the technique,by no mean's do i think its going to be easy in fact i'd say the complete opposite. the main problem as reguards a real fight is that no one can say they would do this or do that because it would be all be on instinct and under pressure most people always go back to how they originally used to fight before they took up martial art's hence you should train regular and hard and then who knows its down to the individual.
To expand on what SokKlab said. Nothing exists in a vaccum. Any technique - strike, lock, balance disruption, etc. - can create an opening for any other technique. Strikes can create openings for locks/sweeps/takedowns/throws/disarms. Locks can create openings for strikes/sweeps/takedowns/throws/disarms. Sweeps can create openings for locks/strikes/takedowns/throws/disarms. Etc. To think that any technique can be used in a vacuum is equivalent to the old saying of "putting all your eggs in one basket." If it fails (and there's a high probability of that happening) then you're out of options. I personally don't rely on anything working except flow. I keep flowing until something does work or until I can no longer fight. I train/teach in this general progression: A) learn to see options everywhere B) learn to flow from option to option C) learn to feel options reflexively D) learn to flow from option to option reflexively Of course there's a lot of work in getting through those general stages but that's basically the gist of my philosophy. The key to this is proper relaxation - see my article "Diamond in the Rough" in the magazine section here at MAP for a more detailed explanation of what I mean by "proper relaxation" - because that's what enables us to feel the options and flow among them reflexively. Development of proper relaxation is one of the most difficult aspects of training and, really, it is something we never really stop developing. Mike
someone tried to stab me with a pen once and i grabed his hand and threw him on the ground and locked up his arm so he couldnt move i didnt wnt to brake ity cuz i was at school but i didnt want to let him get up andthat worked i didnt have to make it a brake
