Welcome to the discussion Ecks. The kick to the groin could work, but people have discussed concerns about using any kicks in a knife fight already in this thread. Now that we have quite an assortment of knife counters in this thread, I'm going to go over some of the basic knife attacks that I feel need to be trained to defend against. I hesitated to post this because I don't want information to be mis-used or mis-understood -- be responsible for your actions, this can be some serious stuff. 1. The angry/insane/crazy knife attacker: Person has no fear or concern for their own personal safety, they charge at you with repeated stabbing and slashing motions with the sole intent to kill you. They rush in on you with little or no warning or time to think or move. Image -- "Imagine a football/rugby player trying to tackle you but this football/rugby player has a knife and will use it." 2. The prison knife attacker: Person does not show the weapon, comes up and grabs you with the free hand, then repeatedly stabs you at close range. Remember they have you grabbed already. The thrusts can come underneath your guard or over the top. Image -- "Someone gets close to you in a non-threatening manner, holds/grabs you while you get stabbed." 3. The martial artist knife attacker: Person fakes attack to get your arms out, then they cut up your hands and arms, they then cut their way in from there. Image -- "Flashing daggers slicing your wrists, biceps, legs, destruction of your limbs, and finishing with a slit throat." 4. The guy you never want to meet knife attacker: Person shows the knife to get your attention. Then they kill you with their free hand which could have another knife or a gun or a stick or who knows what. Image -- "Attacker that wants you to focus on the knife, so they can surprise kill you with what other weapons they have." 5. The sparring knife attacker: Shows the knife, dances around like a sparring match. Maybe lunges in to attack. Image -- "What you see in the movies." Note: You are lucky to get this situation compared to other knife attackers because this can give you time to get away or pull out a better weapon.
I've been training the STAB system for a couple of years now, and assuming you can't get away, I find it the most effective and consistent method. I don't agree with your first comment, I usually grab with both hands. My main priority is defending against the knife, then worry about counter attackk later.
I actually appended my statement a few posts later, as my brain kicked in. My issue isn't so much with the double hand grab/stop (if I remember this is what Transwell advocates in many situations). Rather it's sustaining the double hand grab instead of shucking to the outside and shifting to a better control/attacking position. - Matt
What would be your course of action then? In all my previous knife encounters, kicking my opponent has worked. I, therefore, want to know a more prudent way to disarm an opponent other than striking him, since a schoolyard stoner with a knife is a lot less dangerous than a street punk who knows what he is doing.
I believe you directed your question at Matt, but I'm going to give an answer anyway as I have been shameless in hogging up the post count in this thread anyway I suggest that you simply work the techniques that work for you, both at half speed and full speed against a resisting opponent. Now, if you do this enough, you will need to find someone that is a lot bigger and stronger than you are and do the same. Communication is the key. Trial and error to refine what already works for you to ensure that it will work against someone much bigger and stronger than you are. Make adjustments as you learn more and gain experience. Ecks, I don't know much about you, but have you worked much with knife defense against someone much bigger and stronger than you are?
lol i live in a town of about 70 000, so there actually aren't that many super big guys who use knives, most just use fists. most of the guys with knives are wiggers who think they can fight, and fat guys who wear beanies and act tough. I don't lift weights, but I do do crazy calisthenics, so I guess I really haven't met anyone that much stronger with a knife. thanks for the advice tho, I'll go try that out with my sensei sometime. (we'll use a rubber knife )
Yes, police need to quickly un-holster their weapon....however, a civilian such as my self, has one on the ready.....no holster. I knew of a guy whom had a knife and tried to get the jump of a relative...whom had gun...hmnnnn... Yes, I realise that a LEO had many things on that belt. And anyone that oulls a knife on a Leo, is looking for the advantage of surprose. For that matter to surprise the intended victim anyway. It as plain as who gets the jump first.
If....If...If.....the If's are the variables. If the knifer wasnt experienced.... If the cop didn't have a partner.... If the cop, or anyone else for that matter would not get caught off guard. Now, I am not saying that one, esp LEOs, should not practice empty hand combat.
I like this. However you missed one-the derranged lover, or friend, or person who doesnt know what they are doing with the knife. or has the intention to flash until their opponent comes near.
Thanks for the post 47MartialMan. I have to admit, in some of your earlier posts, I had a hard time trying to figure out what you were saying. Now I think I got a better idea of where you are coming from and it makes a lot more sense to me. And to Ecks. Be safe. A majority of knife defense training is practiced at half-speed so that you get used to the techniques. At half speed you cannot use speed and strength to compensate for bad technique as much as you can at full speed. You still train with resistance, just slow everything down. It is safer too. However, you will need to train full speed also (with control) and when you do, you and your partner should wear eye protection, maybe a helmet, mouth piece, cup, and any other padding so that you can hit each other with some force. Also the eye protection is very important because the training knives will tend to fly out of hand at times and right at the face. Safety first! :Angel:
What excatly is your point here? The point Shootodog was making as far as I can see was to give an illustrative example of why saying "I would carry a gun" Is not the be all and end all of knife defence, I really don't see what point you are trying to make? That a gun is mero dangerous than a knife when both are on equal footing?
Yeah, I sort of would group them into either #1 crazy because if you turn your back on them, they might jump you with the knife. They could also be like #5 and sit back and try to spar with you. They are sort of a combination of things until they commit to an attack. Certainly if they don't come at you, that maybe gives you time to get out of there or try to talk them out of it. Very unpredictable, they could turn the knife on themselves as well as you or onto some innocent. This is kind of like temporary insanity... be something like approaching a trapped animal, you probably don't want to get them all startled into a cornered must fight attitude. Just my thoughts.
I believe 47MartialMan is alluding to the fact that the demo is not realistic to how he and others like him use a gun. I went through similar training as what the demo did, draw weapon from holster. However, many civilian and military when off duty will carry the gun in hand when they suspect danger. This means they might have their hand in their pocket palming the gun, ready to be fired right through the coat pocket or to take it out immediately. I had a millitary friend that didn't like that a couple of thugs were following him in a bad part of town late at night. It turns out that they were only two of six. The others came ahead of him from across the street and so he had six guys suddenly surrounding him. He pulled out his 45 which he already had his hand on in his pocket. The six would be attackers backed off and left him alone. They were looking for an easier target. No need to get into any details about this stuff. We all know it happens, best, IMHO, not to broadcast it across the internet and get anyone in trouble.
unarmed defense Actually, you should not hide the truth. The truth is that guns and knives kill people, reguardless of your personal status in society. Before you get offended, imagine the possibility that anyone with a knife or gun could potentially be a serial killer. I have said (in the past) and have heard people say, that weapons don't kill people. People kill people. Well that is true, to an extent. Imagine you are a very good and intelligent person who is innocent, yet you are sitting in a room full of knives and guns. Now an enraged person enters the room staggering about, foaming at the mouth and groaning loudly. You can see this person is psychotic, and that he is an immediate threat. What do you do? If you pick up a knife or gun, you are the same as he is. If you are a good martial artist you do not need a weapon because you know the moral fundamentals and are living them. Even in a life & death situation.... should this be any different?
Interesting line of thoughts. If you are an innocent person, you probably shouldn't be in a room full of knives with a psychotic. Some would say you are as good as dead. Innocents are the mainsteam of a good society, but it is often the watch dogs (the ones that share the same tools and similar instincts to the killers but choose to be on the right side of the law) that protect the innocents. You may not be able to tell the difference between a watch dog and an innocent (what could be referred to as a sheep). Both can seem very nice and decent people. One however can kill if necessary to protect innocents but prefers not to, the other, well can only kill if they are cornered and have no way to escape, if even then. Innocents can be innocents until some traumatic even happens, then the "tiger" inside of them awakens, and they aren't innocents anymore. What kind of innocent are we talking about? A sleeping tiger or a sheep?
the truth of the matter is one singular fact: if a knifer wants to get you REALLY you'll never see it coming.
My bad, I see your later post and agree. I do like the STAB system, but do agree its often better used as a transitional phase to a better control/attacking position. However I do think thats the most important phase and much more effective than most knife defence techniques that have been used for many years
Pragmatically, I'd rather have you consider me a bad martial artist and use the tool that the situation requires, than be a good, and deceased, pin cushion. I have little use for statements like the above. I think they don't face the reality of certain situations. Further they seems to forget that there are numerous weapons based martial arts out there. - Matt
