Dirty Tactitcs Vs Grappling

Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by Muay Thai Boxer, Jun 24, 2006.

  1. Muay Thai Boxer

    Muay Thai Boxer New Member

    Here is Tommy Carruthers again talking more Crap.

    www.tommycarruthers.com louge fourm

    Anyone know any good grapplers in Glasgow who would be willing to shut him up :)


    Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:07 pm Post subject: Dirty Tactitcs Vs Grappling


    Tactitcs such as biting, groin grabbing, and eye gouging that are supposed to (by your way of thinking) significantly undermine the street effectiveness of grappling.

    Doubtless such tactics can have some effrct in a real fight, but one should not overestimate their role. If your attacker is close enough to engage in biting or eye gouging, then you are close enough to engage in biting or eye gouging also. Moreover you can use your grappling skills to gain a superior position from which your biting and eye gouging will be far more devasting than his.

    There are numerous counters to such foul tactics. A person well versed in grappling can readily adapt his body's position to protect his vulnerable groin and eyes during a real fight. Accordingly, these threats represent more of a nuisance to the experienced grappler than a real threat.

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    Joined: 03 Dec 2005
    Posts: 382

    Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:35 pm Post subject:


    oh thats a good one more of a nusance , am thinking that somebody squeezing my nuts is ALLOT MORE THAN JUST BEING A NUSANCE am thinking its <deleted> painfull ever had it done to you , its like another stupid thing a guy said oh i could suffer somebody driving there thumb into my eyes OH LET ME TRY IT ON YOU for <deleted> sake get real these things are extremely painfull on everybody

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    Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:22 am Post subject:


    i was up against a pretty well built guy some years ago, you know the type 6ft wide hands like spades built like a brick <deleted> house. i grabbed his bollocks as he intended to knock my block off and it was over without a punch thrown.

    the average person expects to have a 'proper' fight like a boxing match or something. those that can fight properly know better. ive known people that you wouldnt deem 'hard' yet them biting someones ear off in a scrap and taking it home to put in the freezer box just in case the other fella wanted it back gives them that reputation (plus 18 months in jail i might add).

    so by all means tell me the counter to having your ear bitten off by someone more determined to win by any means than you.


    Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:04 am Post subject:


    What I typed was, what Royler Gracie told me when I asked him about ditry tatics, at a seminar.

    I wrote it all down on the bus trip home.

    And how is the grappler going to fell pain when he has a superior position and graping the dirty fighters groin, while the dirty fighter cannot reach his groin.

    And Tommy for saying: OH LET ME TRY IT ON YOU.

    No I don't think Royler is going to let you do that to him. It will be him doing that to you from a superior position, with you not being able to do anything about it.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 25, 2006
  2. Leo_E_49

    Leo_E_49 Valued Member

    Dirty tactics combined with grappling is better than either of those individually.
  3. fanatical

    fanatical Cool crow

    See? This one gets it :D
  4. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    And anyone who's actually tried it knows to pick grappling first then add in the dirty tactics.
  5. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    Any grappling instructor worth a damn should know dirty tactics as a matter of course and be able to teach his students them when required.
  6. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

  7. Sever

    Sever Valued Member

    True. We've rolled a couple of times allowing the "dirty" tricks (safely of course, with cups and eye protection) and guess what - whoever was the better grappler still won
  8. Adam Willington

    Adam Willington Valued Member

    Would they have won without the cups and eye protection?
  9. Sever

    Sever Valued Member

    No. Here's the thing - if you're the better grappler, you're better at getting yourself in a position to actually use these tactics. If you suck at grappling and you're getting mounted, no amount of reaching up to stick your finger in their eye is going to stop the better grappler swatting your hand away and playing pat-a-cake with their fists on your face
  10. Muay Thai Boxer

    Muay Thai Boxer New Member

    Can anyone tell me what are some of the numerous counters to such foul tactics, that Royler was talking about. As my Ju Jitsu skills are some what limited.

    I have never been showen how to defend against dirty tactics. Does anyone here get taught or teach how to defend against dirty tactics?

    I 110% argree that you pick grappling first then add in the dirty tactics.

    Unlike tommy boy just learn dirty tactics and then Rickson Gracie will let go of him, and then tommy can proceed to give him a brutral beating from standing :D
  11. madmike

    madmike ow that hurt not


    when i fight i often find my self tangled with my oppent so dirty tactics are useful the one that works for me is to two of my fingers in there mouths then pull away at there cheek!
  12. fanatical

    fanatical Cool crow

    But you don't grapple.
  13. beknar

    beknar Valued Member

    let's get technical

    Let's get to the dirty details (no pun intended). I'm going to stick my head out since I'm a grappling newb, but here goes:

    Say you've done the takedown by whatever means, something went wrong and you had to pull guard. In the ring, this is a neutral position and the guy in your guard is expected to start doing a guard pass instead of trying to submit you from that position. Instead, you're on the street, what stops him from immediately trying to punch you in the balls? Or punching you in the gut? Or making a meal out of your ears?

    After thinking about this for a bit, you have to modify your tactics when on the streets. You'd have to do something else other than just trying to hold the guy in your guard. You'd have to do something other than just lying on your back. The answer? Doing a guillotine choke from the guard. With a guillotine choke, you're sitting up to wrap your arm around his neck and then sinking it. While it's true you have to go to an open guard in order to do so, you close it up again when you sink it, and there's little opportunity to punc your nuts or bite you in the ear when you're doing it. Or a key lock. With a key lock, you also sit up to do it, and when you do, there's also little room for a punch to the nuts. Your heads are also in the wrong position for an ear snack and an arm is in the way. Or a classic 5 point armbar (might be some trouble here from a bite to the leg). Or triangle choking him. You get the picture. If you're constantly moving and probing with techniques, getting in better positions than a neutral one, it seems like he's going to have difficulties going for your nuts simply because you're just so close.

    I'm sure one of the more experienced guys can elaborate different situations from different positions.

    On the other hand, if you just turtle up, you deserve being punched in the back of the head and being punched in the kidneys.
  14. Covaliufan

    Covaliufan Valued Member

    Beknar: things don't really change that much, and where they do I'd argue they change in the guard player's favor.

    If the person in your guard tries to punch you in the balls, you try to catch them in a triangle choke, since they'll basically be feeding it for you.

    If they try to punch you in the stomach...well, that's actually perfectly legal in mma. It doesn't seem to happen that much, or have a lot of effect when it's done. There isn't a lot of room to really swing for the gut, going for the head is more effective, though still not easy on a decent guard player.

    If they try to "munch your ears," I don't know, bite back, or put your thumbs in their eyes. When it comes to doing dirty things to the guys face, I'd say the guy on the bottom of guard actually has more opportunities, since he can control the distance between their upper bodies using his hips.

    If you try to bite my calf while I'm armbarring you from on top of you, one of two things will happen: I'll freak out and extend my hips as hard as I can as fast as I can, completely snapping your elbow, or I'll jerk my leg up away from your mouth, and bring my heel back down hard on your face.

    If you try to mess about with someone's groint while they actually have a triangle choke on you, well, they have complete control of your head and face, your arms are tied up, and your face is inches from their hands. I'd guess you'll lose your eyes faster than you can mess up my balls through my jeans.

    Just learn to fight and grapple; you can add on all this dirty crap to a foundation of real skill with ease, but you can't overcome real skill with only this ear biting nonsense.
  15. elektro

    elektro Valued Member

    You assume the people who are doing the "dirty crap" are relatively unskilled in this and only know things like eye gouge and groin strikes.

    How about a fight where one person is as skilled in dirty crap as the other guy is at grappling. Illegal bare knuckle fights probably contain a lot of this.
    Also, "dirty fighting" isn't all about particular techniques, it's more a mindset really, it just really involves not playing fair in any way possible, including psychologically, and trying to trick your opponent. True it does involve a lot of those particular techniques but it can be a lot subtler than that.
    IMHO dirty fighting is essential to street fighting. There's no referee on the street.
  16. beknar

    beknar Valued Member


    Absolutely agreed! I just wanted to bring out more techniques from more advanced players, since one of the MT guys asked. These aren't really 'anti-dirty stuff' defenses, they're just things that come naturally when you have position.

    elektro -- there are so many things that can happen in a fight. What is someone with a dirty fighting mindset equipped with a set of techniques likely to do? What are the high percentage attacks coming from this kind of person? We have the eye gouges and the groin punches, and then we have pulling on loose skin, then there's also bashing one's head on the sidewalk. We know what to expect from strikers (seeing as I'm a specialist striker) and we know what to expect from grapplers (seeing as this is the grappling forum), but these other guys, what are they going to do? Are all of them just extraordinarily strong psychotics who just go wild and hope to break something by doing so or is there .. something else? Maybe we can quantify what that something else is.

    I'm not trying to belittle you, if it comes across as that way, I just want to know so maybe I have a chance at surviving an encounter with that kind of person.
  17. elektro

    elektro Valued Member

    Just a thought - aren't a lot of martial arts pretty dirty already? Most of them have a lot of these moves as standard.
    Unless we all start fighting like John Wayne, I suspect most of us on here are dirty fighters in one way or another. It's self defence.
  18. elektro

    elektro Valued Member

    A lot of them could just be people that go out on a Saturday night and fight a lot, or natural fighters, someone could pull a weapon on you, someone could have pepper spray in his pocket, toss an alcoholic drink in your face (stings), and use props in such a way as that, or could be good at distracting you for some reason, have a friend waiting behind you that you don't know about, pretend he's rubbish at fighting when really he's an expert. A million and one things spring to mind that aren't necessarily to do with technique but still make a dirty fighter.
    That something else is just probably a good fighting instinct. Perhaps they've had to fight all their lives in one way or another, this person you're fighting. You never can tell. Maybe for some reason or another they're more desperate than you are to win.

    :confused: didn't come across that way......
    Just become as skillful as you can I suppose, and learn to protect your vital areas :p - just try and observe by whatever methods as many real fights as you can I suppose and see what you think are the common dirty techniques.
    To be honest, most of the figths (not many) that I see are pretty amateurish where one bloke usually grabs the other by the lapels and trys for the headbutt or pushes against the wall, followed by a punch or whatever. Either that or the old haymaker right hook which is telegraphed to a point where he might as well of phoned you up to tell you. Or the kind of rugby tackle around the mid-section. Quite dissapointing really. The kicks are usually laughable looking like some kind of wooden toy. In my opinion though it's a mistake to assume it's going to be like that. I would assume the boke I'm fighting is skillful until proved otherwise.
    The most common "dirty" technique I would guess is the headbutt. Fairly easily denied if you are alert.
  19. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    This sounds like person-versus-person, not style-versus-style.
    "May the better man win," rather than "dirty-fighting beats JJ (or vice versa)."
  20. elektro

    elektro Valued Member

    I don't see how you can say "dirty fighting " vs. JJ when it's not exactly clear what dirty fighting is. Ok we've established a handful of "techniques" perhaps eye-gouging, groin striking etc. all of which are in normal martial arts anyway. So what exactly is it?
    If a JJ person gouges eyes is he no longer doing JJ for example? So in this dirty vs JJ fight the JJ person is obliged to stay "clean" - define "clean - is and arm break clean? Is a submission hold clean?

    I think the question is meaningless without first establishing these boundaries.

    Would Karate beat Kung Fu? It depends - if the Karate guy suddenly does a kick more resembling that of Kung Fu is he suddenly doing Kung Fu for a moment?

    It's too vague.

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