Differences in ITF

We could certainly ad on to a thread. Did a search on tis BBS and the first page did not list a specific Sine Wave thread.

I am sure it might turn into much more, but I am curious as to what Van Zandt's perspective is so I can gain insight into the foundation for his comments.

 

I'm relatively confused with all these differences.

Why did they break away?


As for sine wave, I don't know much about it however I heard that sine wave was developed by Choi himself in the early 80's so my question is why drop such a technique if it came from it's founder.

Who changed the black belt pattern?


I'll be sure to visit the club you linked.

 

Is that bad or good?

 

Sine Wave was touted as a method of improving power in strikes. I suppose in theory it could be like Jack Dempsey's 'drop step', a natural dropping of the body to put weight into a punch. But this is far removed from the over-emphasised version taught today.

Besides, speed is the most important factor in developing power. In Gen. Choi's book he puts forward a formula that states power is increased x3 if mass is increased x3, but speed remains constant; power is increased x9 if speed is increased x3, but mass remains constant. Speed is not increased by a dropping of weight into a technique (and certainly not by the sine wave taught today), but by a process called the stretch-shorten cycle.

In sports calling for a generation of maximum power in movement (before punching, jumping, or throwing a ball), you instinctively make a movement in the opposite direction. A prestretch increases power because muscles work best in dynamic concentric actions if you contract them from an optimal stretch. Therefore developing flexibility to increase muscle extensibility will let you exert force on the object (fist, ball, etc) on a longer path for a longer time, accelerating it more.

In my opinion, Sine Wave was a term coined to give the ITF a unique identity that separates them from all the other ITF-style organisations and flavours of TKD that exist. Sadly it failed and makes them look rather silly. Sine Wave is useless.

 

I think you're still reading a lot in to this. If there is a great instructor with great students in a great class, that is what you should look for. Affiliations etc... Mean relatively little compared to that.

In simple terms, if the ITF-NK club in your area is better than the TAGB clubs, go to that. If a TAGB club is better, go to that. Go to the classes, ask questions and observe/report back for further input would be my suggestion.

 

Sorry, not following - what sort of opportunities are you talking about? And how do they differ from other orgs?

Can't speak on the tournaments, as I`m not TAGB - but on one side.. most orgs do comps and on the other, is the poster looking for the more sport orientated side of TKD anyway - I didnt get that impression from his post.

I am only asking as I don't believe you can say 'join this org' if you want this and this and this... as orgs syllabus's (all of them) are severely limited and often lacking IMO... and it really comes down to the club and the club instructor in regards to what is and what is not taught and of course, how well it is taught. Kinda like exactly what Prizewriter has put below:

^^^^^ Agreed

Stuart

 

Well, yeah. I said at the very start of this thread it all depends on the club and instructor. But the OP kept asking about which org is best, and in my opinion, it's the TAGB, based on the fact they treated me the best out of all the orgs I experienced.

 

Here's what I wrote in my very first post:

 

Just for comparison sake, there is also a WTF school near the original poster:

http://www.wtkd.co.uk/

It might be easy to descend in to stereotypes and say "Oh those WTF schools are just all about sport", but that isn't always the case. For example, the WTF association in my neck of the woods has a dedicated honisul section as part of their grading syllabus covering a range of attacks against grabs, takedowns, ground escapes, weapons etc.... The local TAGB class I use to go to had none of that.

 

Yes, sure. My posts were just based on when you started touting the TAGB.. and nothing wrong with that if your part of them and impressed with them etc. Was just wondering about some of the things you said

You still didn't expand on what sort of opportunities you were talking about? And how do they differ from other orgs?


Stuart

 

Very few are though... open and honest about it... yet so many are really sport based and often in denial for some reason!

Stuart

 

I actually think some schools don't realise they have descended in to the realms of sports MA sometimes.

For example, in the TAGB school they scoffed at WTF schools as just "sports", but all we did in class was warm up, patterns and sparring. And at that time the TAGB were doing a helluva a lot of comps of their own. I genuinely don't think my coach realised how far down the "sports" route the club was going.

 

It's semi-contact!? What else could anyone think?

 

Interesting. You should note that what you state in your first paragraph is exactly the same as what General Choi taught. Specificaly, with exceptions, each motion starts with a backward / opposite direction motion.

As for your second point, I will say that our opinions vary greatly. Yours seems to ignore that the couple of pages that address sine wave also list "Saw Tooth Wave" and "Flat Wave" These three waves are metaphors used to describe the motion of the body. Sine wave is a smooth up nad down motion, flat wave is where the head remains level as seen in certain "Karate Styles" and saw tooth wave is a jerky / angular motion.

The sine wave is not the goal, but the result of flexing the knees slightly when stepping or to add power in hand techniques. So, it seems you prefer the flat or saw tooth wave and see no benefit to flexing the kness in a fluid motion.

AFAIAC when a boxer flexes their knees when punching that is the same as Sine wave. Useless?

 

I think this one is really difficult to substantiate. Having said that I do sine wave and in all honesty I can say it certainly feels like I am generating more power when using it to punch. That may or may not be the case but it certainly feels like I am bringing the power from my feet when executing the punch. Again this may not actually be the case although I perceive it to be.

Baza

 

Are you telling me you actually believe Sine Wave, as it is performed by the majority of ITF stylists who do it, is a useful tool for teaching how to add power to a punch? I hope not.

Nope. I was saying speed (and thus power) comes from the stretch-shorten cycle, not from Sine Wave.

Besides, there is nothing "slightly" about the stepping or knee flexion in today's Sine Wave.

Please don't try and compare Sine Wave (or even TKD as an art) to boxing when it comes to punching. Just... don't.

My point is this - Sine Wave is so over-exaggerated these days (for artistic purposes maybe, who knows?) that it has lost any usefulness as a training aid. Its usefulness at any point in its history was dubious at best anyway. Patterns have limited carryover to live application, Sine Wave even less so.

 

The concept it not unique to TKD If you read boxing literature, it is often stated that a majority pf the power in the punch comes from the legs.