Di Mak

Most of what you ask is discussed through out this thread, however I would say most knockouts are in fact PP knockouts that is why when hit the guy drops. That being said TRAD. CHINESE MEDICINE which is the source for PP and associated concepts is the way the creators of ALL TMA's viewed the body it was thier medical science. To use WESTERN MEDICAL TERMS to prove will not make sense just as translating words from one language to another is never exact. PP use TCM let the stylist know where the body is weak to say PUNCH HIM IN THE TRIPLE YIN CROSSING is the same as saying HIT HIM IN THE FLOATING RIB. I posted a site WWW.COMBATKYUSHO.COM read the articels and much of what you ask will be anwsered.
You review books the person who owns the site has put out a great book. I train with him now and then and he his what he claims and he has proven to me his direction on this stuff is very effective. I have been researching thius stuff since I met Taika OYATA in the mid 1980's.

 

If it hurts under pressure, it's a pressure point. 'Nuff said.

 

I wasn't asking for the sake of asking. I have added stuff throughout the life of this thread.

That's why I made the effort to bring it all together. And No, I don't see it as my personal property, but...

No-one has answered Stumps question about pressure point usage and knockouts in the UFC.

And a few of the other issues are still not being addressed. We can talk theory about Pressure Points and Dim Mak all we want, but do they work under duress? Particularly the Dim mak knockouts or worse...

Has anybody who you know and trust, used these techniques under serious duress and managed to make them work? Particularly the Strikes to Pressure point set-ups (Chains).

I mentioned much earlier in this thread that I had used a pressure point technique (No not Dim Mak!), that worked, in a very real situation. Because it was the best Window of opportunity at the time.

Has anybody else?

 

Time for real world comments as opposed to theories I think.

Once bumped a particular spot on my rib cage against a steel bolt while doing menial tasks in a factory. Knocked me out for two minutes and left me feeling sick all day.

Also got my forearm tapped by a Mercenary, whos was working the door in my home town between jobs, paralysing my arm.

Do pressure points exist? Yes

Can they kill? I believe it's possible.

Are they so easily accessible as to be a high percentile/worthwhile pursuit for self defence? I don't think so.

Are they worth knowing, nonetheless? Yes, I believe they are!

 

Nicely laid out Sokklab....sorry I've not been contributing much here for a while (some may call that a blessing!!!)....damn work keeps interfering with my posting.

There is definite proof tht a blow to the check can and has killed...but so rarely because I assume it relies on a large number of factors interacting....so for anyone to use these as proof of dim mak is nonsense.....why are there not Kyokushinkai karateka dropping like flies at every knockdown tournament around the world??? Their main focus is full contact punches to the chest...so this area should be ripe for such dim mak opportunities!!

I agree with Andy's post to a large extent....my way of loking at it is - Pressure points (or whatever) return on investment (the possibility of them being useful in a confrontation against the time required to train them to an level where they are usable and useful) is not worth the initial outlay to me.

 

Yet one more thing to look into on a rainy day.

Here's the missing line;



Absorb what is useful

File away what is unproven, for testing later

Discard what is useless.

 

I stated this earlier " Boxers the old one two the ribcage / floating rib is the LIVER /SPLEEN CROSSING and sets up hook punch to the jaw STOMACH 5, 6 that works all the time "

This is a very common example I use that is very often seen. The reason it works can be explained. The fact that it was not a planned preassure point attack is not the issue. I find that the way many people attempt to expalin it will not work is they are going for the single point as opposed to going for the point through a larger area of trauma. If you research these concepts you will find reasons many techniques are used and work well. True in the heat of a fight under duress to tap and single point at the right angle is not going to happen the fact is the need for the angle is not as important as some will like to sell you in seminars. I also maintain the reason many of the submission techniques work can be mapped out using TCM and the fact taht some people do not bother with the why doesw not invalidate the fact the information is correct.

I do not believe in,

NO TOUCH KNOCKOUTS
KIAI KNOCKOUTS
USEING SINGLE POINT COMBO'S IN COMBAT.

Did see the UFC fight were Tim Silva won the night Coture spanked Ortiz. I sat there with one of my buddies and mapped the final cpombo he used to get the KO. when he planted the knee to the ribs and slammed the elbow across the jaw it was exactly what I explained top of this except the elbow hit more tahn st5, 6

 

Well, I guess that answers the UFC pressure point mystery.

 

"Well, I guess that answers the UFC pressure point mystery"

Sometimes to ask can any be explained by the concepts will answer the question. People often use the UFC as the end all proof of techniques. I feel that two things should be considered,

1. these guys are not you average attacker, or even average fighters. They are trained in a manner even most of the new crop of trendy MMA's who do it as a hobby and do not to compete are.

2. They are focused on one task and a set of rules and as in any training they can be taken out of thier game by moving outside of those rules. Take alot of them and put them in a ring with a pure MT guy and do not allow any take downs alot of them would be less effective.

I tend to seek out guys who have seen Military action and have used thier skills in war, while gaurding US concerns suchs as Oil pipelines. When the attack is not known as in a UFC they know the attack is coming and often how the person is going to start.

CAUTION , STRAYING OFF TOPIC INTO A UFC AS THE ONLY PROOF THREAD.

 

Geez, thanks for making me your scapegoat. Yes, UFC is a sport, not an actual fight. The point is, whenever you target a specific point, your using pressure points!

 

preassure points , vital points are weak spots or good targets. The Ckinese did a great job of maaping out these points and came up with a way to take ful advantage of them. In the western medicene side we have other information that science has provided, xrays are great for seeing how joints are constructed or were bones thin out.

MAX I hope I did not make you a scapegoat that was not my intention. I only ment as in any research to look at all sides. To ask why did that combo A work better than combo B. As well as how do you put together a combo using PP concepts. I also stress use all westerm or all TCM terms do not mix them , combo A can be explained in both but a combo of the two will not make sense.

 

The joys or repetition. I prefer single or maybe double hits, not leingthy preprogramed combos.

 

I do to , that is why I like to know how to cause much damage with less shots

 

Sokklab's questions

Sokklab has laid out some good questions for discussion..ill address them each seperately in brief.

The main issues in this thread are:

1.Define, what is the Difference between Pressure Points and Dim Mak?

Dim-mak points=accupuncure points=accupressure points=Pressure points, its a choice of rhetoric. Dim-mak comes from the term dian xue, or "cavity press". The "death touch" term seems to have evovled only through the movies .

2.Define What is a Pressure Point?

Again, many "scholors" have debated about what exactly constitiuts a pressure point. However they all basically agree that any specific point on the body that produces a higher physical response then the rest is a pressure point. An accupoint can be used for healing, or for hurting.



3.Do Pressure Points Exist? What Physical Evidence is there to Prove this?

Yes they definately exist. But the context of their existance is still a matter of great scientific debate. There is no doubt that striking to certain points of the body can cause extreme damge. Take the pressure point "stomach 9" as dictated by chinese terms. It lies on the carotid sinus, and the vegas nerve. Both of which are well known to be able to produce a KO for western physiological reasons.

4.Do pressure points work? (Reference here to use in training and not serious self-protection, that's later).

I have gotten them to work, both in training and real combat. Did I need them to end the fight? No, but it quickened my survival. I have also taught others that have attested they work. But I must stress again, its like any other martial arts tool, you shouldnt rely upon it.

5.Can Pressure Points work in a Grappling or Striking Scenario?

Of course, a friend of mine is a really good grappler, he was also a 3 time national powerlifting champion. He was showing me some grappling one day, and pointed out the pressure points he used (since he knew I could tell him more) in his grappling. He also noted how effective they were to get the opponent distracted, or in a compromising position in a pinch (if you are just grappling for fun)


6.Do Pressure Points work better in a Grappling-Orientated Scenario or a Striking Orientated Scenario? Is the answer based upon personal preference or experience? Define Experience.

From experience in trying them both ways I would have to say in a striking senario, but striking is my main foucs, so my opionin is still subjective. Many of these points need sufficient force to produce a reaction. Some people can ingore pain if your simply gouging into one of them. Plus if you are good enough at striking it shouldnt resort to grappling, after all, thats the last place you want to go in a street enounter.

7. If pressure points Work. Are Pressure Points the best solution regarding Applicability within a Given situation? (Define Situation and Conditions).

Lets assume for the sake of this question it is well within my ability to KO you in a single pressure point shot if you throw a punch at me from any direction, and I can do this instantly. Would that be my best option? It could be, but I can also break your arm, your jaw, your nose, throw you to the ground....etc... I have all these options at my disposal, it depends on how I react. I may do all of the above if your standing long enough. I may hold you up so I can beat you more. My point is why pick one technique and rely on that? I can utilize pressure points in my joint locking, throwing, grappling, and striking. It just needs to be trained in correctly so it is done by feel and reaction.

8. Can these techniques work under Intense Duress against a Serious Threat? (Define Serious Threat).

Do any of your techniques work under duress? Pressure points can be lower percentage techniques especially if not trained properly, but if you miss it shouldnt affect the outcome of the fight.

Add Ons:

9. Is Dim Mak a Marketing Myth or is it real?

It depends on your perceptions of dim-mak, pressurepoints are real, and some people can produce amazing results with them. Do you believe "speedman" can make you hit as fast as lightning, or the SCARS system will make you undeafeatable? All of the above is an example of marketing hype. In this case there is some truth and usefull stuff behind the myth.

10. One for Stump. Why haven't we seen any Pressure Point Knockouts in the UFC? Is it because there are only certain people who can really make this work under Combat Conditions or because these Masters refuse to partake in 'Sport'?

I would say a combination of the above with a few more reasons and less cynisism. A good point strike cannot really be done with a closed fist, you need a smaller striking area to maximize your pressure per square inch. I also havent seen anyone in the UFC that even had the credentials that could even warrent the possibility that they may be possess some usefull dim-mak knowledge. They are great althetes, and its a great sport, but there are rules, and last time I checked it specifically outlined no pressure points as a rule. I know you will probably retort with the early UFC and the "no biting or eye gouging rule", but see the above reasons......

Hope my responses were helpfull, once again any questions you want to ask on this subject I can answer or find someone that can.

best regards.

Gary

 

Little more fuel for the Dim Mak fire:

My Sifu reminded me of a different application, if you will, for Dim Mak in a fight. We recently discovered that Dim Mak (or something similiar) is built into our system (and for that matter most traditional systems). But it's application isn't necessarily the knock out strike.

Rather we use it to weaken specific parts of the body. For example a lot of our bridging work subtly employs energy manipulations/strikes. The intended outcome is that an arm looses a bit of energy as part of the exchange. The result (this is for a protracted fight) is that the arm starts to drop. This is not necessarily a "shaw brothers" shut down of one side of the body, but a half inch to an inch drop (sometimes more). The application of this (again in a protracted fight) is that this will change the nature of a persons guard leaving them opening up attack lines.

Feel free to argue the real world application of this. I can't quote numbers/percentages of fights that an exchange|breakaway|exchange pattern. But it's something to think about.

- Matt

 

sounds like KYUSHO/TUITE from an Okinwain side, If done with a combat intent. There are many techniques that soften up the attacker for further damage. Much of the Knockout effect was brought to the seminar circuit by folks looking to mystify for money. Many of the knockout hits work when the person is standing there waiting to be hit. add BODY ALARM REATION, MOVMENT, BEING ATTACKED/RESPONDING and the pinpoint /angle /tap/rub they CLAIM is required is NOT going to happen. It sounds like you are being shown very good applictaion for the concepts discussed, making openings , changing the attackers balance, intent, body postion and the added pain they feel is always a plus.

 

I have also seen pressure point strikes used with devastating effect at seminars (George Dillman, Leon Jay, Pat McCarthy) but in my humble opinion i dont think any one of these could use these techniques unless their opponant was tied 2 a tree.
Thats not 2 say that i believe that pps don't work, they do, its just that i believe there are only a few real masters that can make them work in a real situation. (certainly not me though)
Kata contains these strikes in the correct application order, but obviously they are hidden within the kata so as to stop any fool from applying them willy nilly & causing real harm.
Basicly study correctly & your eyes will be opened !

 

Hi Colin

I agree with you 100%
With my former Kung Fu Sifu I trained with George Dillman, Leon Jay, Rick Moneymaker & Pat McCarthy... I noticed that Mr Dillman picked out certain people at seminars who dropped like a brick when 'touched' usually they had lots of badges, bowed very revelently and seemed a little nervous (NATURALLY). Like a proper hypnotist Mr D would say "I will hit you here (taps arm) and here (taps neck) he then repeats it again a few times so the eager crowd can see the points... Slap, Bang the guy goes down... the power of suggestion methinks,
wouldn't it be easier to do a home study hypnotism course and touch them on the forehead so that they collapse in a heap?

Russell Stutely (now of DSI (UK) Rick Moneymaker fame) was also there but as a member of the audience, at that time he was the same grade as myself just below Black. We got to know him very well, I remember I video'd my instructor knocking him around the hall, blindfolded....
A few years later, thanks to his affiliation with DSI and the interest in PP & Tuite, he is a master, he has black belts coming out of his ears, he's in the US Black Belt hall of Fame and features on the cover of several UK MA magazines....


Louie

 

You mean you wish you'd 'sold out' Louie?