Di Mak

Dim Mak is a reference to anyone who would try this stuff in a real fight, your preyyt DIM, Mac!

 

*Applause

 

You like me!!! You really like me!!!

 

not to be rude but it looks to me like your closed mind has taken over your martial arts. you look at things and see how crappy it is whene you should be picking out the things that make you stronger. many things in Dim Mak may seem like nonsence in a "real fight", but a little non-sense could go farther than you mind lets you think. so Drunken Boxing is a total wast also. that is a lot of non-sense but is totaly effective.(in its own way)

 

Lol yes drunken boxing is very effective in it’s own way….it’s an effective way to have your **** kicked while you look like a muppet


One of my instructor had a great saying…..keep an open mind…but not so open as your brains fall out

How many real fights have you seen Dim Mak used in?

 

really? well I haven't seen that many fights but have had many pressure points used on me and they hurt like @#$% (use your imagination)

 

Yes..they hurt....were you thrashing visiously before it was applied to you? Were you kicking the other guy in the stones when he was trying to apply them? Or did you stand as most people do...compliant until it was applied?

I've had lots of pressure points applied to me....they hurt.....so does getting kicked in the shin...neither would put me out of a fight. And unless you take to attacking unaware bystanders it's going to be of very little use to you in a fight because it's hard enough to hit a moving target square in the mush...

...so how do you expect to be able to hit Gall Bladder 5 or Stomach 20 with any amount of accuracy (remember that to work the pressure has to be applied in the correct direction, not just to the right spot).

So if pressure points work or not is dependant on you being able to apply them and seeing as they are nigh on impossible to apply in most confrontations they are of no real value, because you need to go so far out of your way to make them work you'd have been better off just hitting them in the jaw with a good cross than tying to fiddle with their arm.

The same principles apply for Dim Mak if there is such a thing. And in my opinion there aint

 

Stump,

I think you are over generalizing all of this. The knowledge of pressure points for fighting supliments regular targeting techniques. It's a component of a large fighting strategy. I think only the most naieve (or perhaps the "great masters") should expect that they can just touch someone and have them fall over. But if you can encorporate knowledge of pressure points into your overall combat strategy then you can take advantage of their benefits when they present themselves. But you can't build an entire strategy around them. But if the opportunity for a good gunt to an arm presents itself, why not take it?

In this respect the use of Dim Mak is not unlike the concept of disarms in Kali. Attempting to disarm a live knife is a near impossible task in reality. Disarms come most often as byproducts of other moves. The same is true for locking and throwing in most Japanese arts. You get to them through atemi. One can't expect to start off with only throwing and locking in mind. There needs to be a greater strategy in place.

- Matt

ps. The same is true with Drunken Boxing. The movies/forms present this idea that someone would find in a 'persona' (be it drunken or an animal) for an entire fight. The fact is that Drunken (or any of the animals) would only be used at advantageous moments.

 

Good post Matt...but people have built arts on should be a "what if" based purely on their sellability, not their usability - and both drunken boxing and pressure points are good examples - the second being a better one.

I still think pressure points have so little applicability as to be useless de facto. An effective fighter could remain so without any knowledge of that. Even at their best they are sod all use in my book...if people looked at them objectively most people would see them for what they are.....gimmicks

 

Forgive me for being naïve as i am very new to MA, but which arts are the ones that base their sellability on pressure points? I prctice CKD and as far as I know we dont get involved in that sort of thing, but want to know what to keep my eyes open for.

 

Stump,

I can understand you point, but have to respectfully disagree (which is pretty much what you said to me as well). Even the most rudimentary fighters typically make use of obvious pressure points. But since that's built into us as part basic targeting we just take it for granted that a chop to the side of the neck or a blow to the jaw line is going to cause the average joe to briefly buckle (at the least).

As far as the Drunken Boxing, what can I say, I've seen it pressure tested and it worked. But like I said the person shifted into drunken mode for only about three moves and was out of it. I wouldn't say the same results would have happened if he had been weaving and swaying the entire time.

Thanks for the debate!

- Matt

 

Anywhere that hurts is a pressurepoint. The ting is, in Dim Mak, they teach you that to do the ninja killer touch of doom, you have to hit an exact spot, at an exact angle, with exact pressure, at an exact time of day (really look it up). Your best bet is to stick to the "general" pps, Groin, temple, nasum, etc.

 

Shade: Kyoshu Jutsu - or any derivative of

 

BTW - I find the face to be a really good pressure point......hit it hard enough you get a good pain reaction

 

Tai Chi Chuan, Bagua, many other Chinese systems are very big on Pressure Points Shade.

Modern 'Military' systems such as the SCARS programme also use them alot.

One point, Pressure Points do not neccessarily refer to Dim Mak.

Chin Na uses alot of Pressure Points, but these are usually used to amplify a lock or hold with a Muscle Squeeze, insertion or some other dastardly doings.

Very nasty, but you need a 'Base' art to provide the range finding, targeting etc to be able to use anything Pressure point related and the question remains are they the best tool for the job, under the circumstances, mostly No, but occassionally Yes.

Worth knowing? Where's Kwan Jang when you need him to make a contribution? He's big on going beyond 'Gross Motor skills'.

 

I have witnessed this very thing.

I was priveledged to meet and personally study under Master Taika Seiyu Oyata in 1985. He performed a seminar on tuite jitsu and kyusho jitsu. The techniques I learned were impressive, but what really stuck with me was the man himself. He had a presence that was at once warm yet imposing, a disciplined mind tempered with quick wit and a kind heart.

Before the seminar, Master Oyata performed a demonstration for several local schools. He asked my Sifu to provide two large, male volunteers for this demonstration. After speaking for a time, Master Oyata called for the volunteers to stand on either side of him. Master Oyata simply reached out and tapped each volunteer somewhere along the neck, and each one crumpled unceremoniously to the ground, unconscious.

It was like watching Spock do the Vulcan "nerve pinch." But this was real.

As soon as his volunteers went down, Master Oyata knelt down next to each of them and gave them some kind of treatment, using pressure points to reverse whatever it was he did to them. They soon recovered, obviously shaken but relatively undamaged.

Later, and perhaps even more shocking, Master Oyata stopped--and then restarted--the heart of a volunteer. A doctor was standing by "just in case," and also to verify that the volunteer's heart did, in fact, stop. Incredible.

Later during the seminar, Master Oyata told me that the techniques he used in the demonstration were guarded closely and not taught to just anyone. He said he would not teach Americans because, "Americans too crazy, they'd go around knocking each other out." I laughed, but I knew he was right.

Master Taika Seiyu Oyata was almost 60 years old at the time of that demonstration. It was an experience I will never forget.

 

Americans too crazy? You just explained that he risked the life of at least 3 people. HE needs to think about his "just in case" a little better.

Oh, and did they try to dodge/counter him? No? I could do just about any thing if the guy i'm doing it to would ley me. Take dragon ball z, if this Goku guy starts sayin KA..... ME... I'll be damned if i let him get to ha.

Pressure points work, no one is arguing that, what is being argued is their usfulness in a situation, I wouldn't want to stop a guy's heart if he jumps me, just ruff him up a bit.

Edit: Don't make multiple posts, use the edit button

 

Well, we do pressure points, of a sort. It depends on your definition of pressure points really. If its a point where you can strike in order to cause damage and pain, then we teach that the pressure point you should aim for is your opponents body. On the other hand if you want more specific pressure points you might want to ask your instructor, or cross-train in another art.

 

I don't see what the fuss is about. Dim mak is just about knowing the weakest parts of the human body.

Yeah, you can get all mystic about it and say you have to hit them here at a 45 degree angle, if they're a middle aged guy and you're at sea level in june, but everyone knows that's bull (i hope everyone does, I really hope everyone does...)

When you think of points, as in small dots on the human body, these are only useful to know for acupuncture or qigong purposes - you'd never try to use them in a real fight and since the energy in the body is moving wildly in a fight, they'd have limited effect if you did.

The bottom line is it'll hurt someone more if you hit them in the soft bits instead of the hard, bony bits. It makes sense if you're in a fight, to aim/grab onto where you know there are major arteries, joints, gaps between muscles, nerves, etc. Certain moves hurt a little more than repeated punches in the head (just ask Mike Tyson for a demonstration)

Thanks for the info RubyMoon - I'll keep away from Master Taika Seiyu, he seems like nutter

 

No problem! If I painted Master Oyata in a way that makes him "seem like a nutter" then I have done him a terrible injustice. The demonstration was in a controlled environment with volunteers who knew exactly what they were getting themselves into. It may sound dangerous and crazy--and it would be for any of us--but to someone like Master Oyata, this was just a walk in the park. It was very kind and generous of him to provide such a unique opportunity to witness what a lifetime of hard training can accomplish.