[Troll Mode ON] What's with all the densho for sale on eBay? Are you ninjers obsessed with such things? [Troll Mode OFF]
I just searched ebay, there were two listed in antiques and collectibles. I dont think thats that many.
When people don't have access to good instruction, they clamor for anything they can get their hands on.
Although in all fairness, Hatsumi IS rumoured to have quite the collection himself... I reckon some of it probably comes off him too...Since he deems it appropriate to collect older densho and the extrapolate the techniques contained for fun in his lessons, I'd guess his students also think it's cool to buy old scrolls and re-do the techniques with their own students for fun? Some of it's that for sure..
Try this search - remove the Ninjatendo games and you have 70+, no? I was including all the 'ninjer secrets CDs' with densho on them etc.
Most of the ebay “densho” seem to be books published by Takamatsuden, and I have no idea how popular they are I have no idea what this means Personally I learn a lot from reading old treaties on martial arts from a variety of sources (Japanese, Chinese, English, German etc). It seems to me that this is a similar principle to reading old densho to see what you can learn from them What I do know is that during the 90’s, when the depth of knowledge of the arts outside Japan was a little light, many of us invested a lot of time and money travelling to Japan to learn the kata of the various ryuha Some people marketed their seminars along the lines of “Learn the kata of XYZ Ryu as they are written in the densho”. For obvious (human) reasons people attributed a certain validity to things sourced from the densho, and there tended to be an attitude of “I know the correct way of doing XYZ kata, the way others do it is henka and therefore lesser in value” Thankfully over time the general level of knowledge of these things has deepened and matured so this attitude has largely died out. However, perhaps it lingers on a little and people naturally have a desire to own their own densho?
I think Benkyoka was closest to the money in his comment, honestly. There's an interview with a Bujinkan 15th Dan in a magazine here (Robin Doenicke, in Blitz Magazine), and when asked which of the nine Ryu (translated, for some reason, by the 5th Dan interviewing Robin, as "forms") is his favourite, Robin answers that he honestly doesn't know one from another. The Densho being sold are the individual Ryu themselves, and as such, may be one of the only references that most can get their heads around (Hatsumi's books are written rather vaguely in this regard). Oh, and for the record, the majority there aren't the "Takamatsuden" series, there's only a couple of those. Most are the "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu Densho" series out of Germany (Carsten Kuhn), in various languages and national editions (as well as repeated a fair bit).
Scott, I appreciate alot of what you post here on map. Also, being involved with more than one koryu, I appreciate your knowledge and background. BUT...... may I ask, why you seem obsessed with what "ninjers" are obsessed about?
While I don't mind one bit those who are practicing ninjutsu/ninpo/whatever, I think I am obsessed with ninjers. I have Googled for a help group to combat this, but all links seem to return here. [stands up] Hi everyone. My name is Scott and I am a ninjerholic. It's been at least 20 mins since I last thought about ninjers. [subdued applause] [sits down] Damn, just thought about ninjers again. Those bloody shuko get me every time.
Yes maybe this is true for many people, but it should not really be the case The movements / strategies etc of each of the schools are quite distinct to my eyes. I don't think you can figure them out from a book so probably you have to seek out instruction if you want to understand this stuff Maybe people with a good understanding of "general taijutsu" could use books like these or the Ten Chi Jin to ensure that they train in a variety of situations / patterns (good thing as otherwise there's a tendency to only train in stuff you're comfortable doing), but that is different from learning the specifics of a ryu
Absolutely agreed (honestly, I was a little shocked when I saw Robin's answer that he couldn't really differentiate the different Ryu... like you, they're fairly easy to tell apart, to my eyes), but it does seem to be the way it is for some.
Oh, I'm not doubting (or commenting on) Robin's skill or movement, just using his interview as an example of the understanding of the individual systems that is in the Bujinkan. And that mainly comes down to, as Robin says in the interview, they aren't taught separately, just mixed in together, so he never tried to separate them (although, to be frank, there are a range of other things in the interview that leap out at me in this regard). The point was really that if a 15th Dan can't tell one Ryu from another, that could be why books giving the systems individually are more popular in the Bujinkan community, as people are looking for them for the information that isn't commonly presented.
Whilst I cannot speak for him, I feel that the difference here is that people who are training directly under MK holder in Japan are getting satisfaction from their training that means they don't need to scramble around for scraps of what may or may not be important. It is primarily those outside of this loop that need to try to feel connected to the art by supplementing it with the information you talk about.
Don't know about that, I think it's more that many members in the Bujinkan feel that they are being taught the actual systems, which is not the case, so when they find a way to get to them, they take it. But, for clarities sake, here is the quote from the interview itself, so you can see what Robin said:
Ah, a classic case of Fuma Ryu-itis. Take two Youtube videos daily, and you should be able to control it.
Overly simplistic really. The matter is a little more complex to me. Firstly, what is MK? We discussed it before as being Full Transmission. To achieve MK do you have to do a test of each kata as shown by RVD, or does your teacher look at you and say right - you got it, here's the Densho and here's your MK. That is the first big mistake - people think that they can do it the other way around, get the Densho and learn to be MK (even if the Densho aren't in unreadable form) for example -the Densho are Videos, so they copy RVD's movement impeccably via video and now expect to be MK. If on the other hand you look at MK as being given full transmission, and then going onto internalize the movement within it, a lesson from the MK holder might not be in Kata - but it will be in principles within the Kata and Densho that marked them as ready for MK. So if you are getting training like that from a MK - why would you care about the Densho? If you are not, and you have no access to the proper training, you would try to plaster over the cracks and buy Videos, Densho, learn the Japanese names for every technique blah blah... There is an Ura and Omote to this in that some without the MK connection spurn the Densho Club and go for the 'feeliing' but most often than not these guys are as lost as the rest of them. So, why do you care about Ryu Ha if you are getting valid, enlightening training every week from somebody you trust and look up to? In fact - if you are doing this sort of self training Ryu Ha analysis aren't you perhaps challenging and questioning the method of instruction that you are receiving?
:topic: there is only one MK : MOOOOOOOOOOOOOORTAL KOOOOOOOOOOOOMBAT!!!!!! in order to get the 'Full Transmission' aka FataliTy, you must get toasty.. err.. go to the source, which some expound as being japan. as a guy who used to live in japan and likes the color yeller used to say: "GET OVER HERE!!!!!!!" :evil:
