Defending against a knife attack

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by EdiSco, May 12, 2016.

  1. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    True, but then it's not always as easy as never fight someone with a knife. There are times when not fighting isn't an option, but thankfully those situations are uncommon.
    Obviously then a left-right body-head turning kick combo is the way to go ;)
  2. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    360 for the win :D
  3. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Next time, my friend, next time. (I told you I'm getting better).
  4. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Because the size of the percent chance makes a difference as to whether doubling it is significant. Double a very tiny number and you still have a very tiny number. And we're talking about an industry rife with people who overestimate their capabilities and where the gap between (well) trained and untrained in other areas is very significant.

    Of course you'll take it. It's literally all you get. My point wasn't "oh knife training is pointless you're just going to probably die anyway." The point is realistically assessing your capabilities and chances of survival.

    Because there's no alternative unless you somehow develop magic superpowers. It's literally all you get. It's not so significant that you get a hugely better chance at dealing with knives. It's not so insignificant that, especially if you work in an industry where it's a relevant concern, it's not worth training.
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    We are not disagreeing with each other in substance, only interpretation.

    I always find it very difficult to find stats on knife crime in the UK (if anyone has a link to stats about injury rate and types of injury, that would be a good thing to have in the thread), but if we take this:

    "The statistics, obtained after a Freedom of Information request, reveal that there were 1,038 victims of knife crime in London in January, of which 410 were injured and four killed. The remainder were threatened with knives."


    I presume "knife crime" in this context covers being threatened with a knife, as well as being attacked, so we'll have to forget that.

    But let's assume that if we are injured by a knife in the UK, then we have around a 1% chance of dying from the injuries we sustain.

    In your assessment, what kind of statistical advantage, in ballpark figures, do you feel your training gives you over someone with no training whatsoever, in reducing, firstly, the chance of being injured, and secondly, the chance of sustaining a lethal injury?
    Last edited: May 13, 2016
  6. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    That's one of the things I stress in my knife defence training, keep going even if you're stabbed because it probably won't kill you whereas if you panic and go foetal you may well then be fatally stabbed.
    I've known people stabbed in the heart survive.
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I wholeheartedly agree (just realised the bad pun, but I'll leave it there).

    I knew someone who was clinically dead for a while after being stabbed in the chest (I think it damaged his heart, can't remember now, but the scar was very impressive).
  8. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Coincidentally, speaking of the rarity of knife attacks, three people were hospitalised with knife injuries just 200 yards from my flat today.

    [EDIT:] Neighbour got it wrong. It was 3 arrested and 1 in hospital. 5 kids, oldest 14 yrs. old, took to a man in his 30's with knives and a baseball bat.
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
  9. 8limbs38112

    8limbs38112 Valued Member

    Sooooooooooooooo. I was reading the posts here and it seems to be the consensus view that, knife defense training only increases your chances of survival by a very small percentage. . Discouraging yes, but I must be brave little maist and face reality.

    But let's say pekiti tirsia practitioner is backed into a corner against a knife wielding criminal, with no training, that wants to KILL and ROB him. BUT, fortunately the Kali practitioner has a knife also. Would that increase his chances of survival and winning the knife fight LARGELY, or would it just be by a SMALL PERCENTAGE. Curious to hear what the veteran maists have to say about a situation like this.
  10. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    A point of view from Grand Master Danny Guba.

    If he holds the knife to my neck I give him what he wants.

    If he stands in front of me waving the knife as a threat then maybe, just maybe I can do my technique.

    Another point of view from my first Kung Fu instructor when asked by a student who walked in with a black eye what he would have done when attacked while standing at a bar minding his own business.

    I'd have got a black eye was his reply.

    My own view is that if you are backed into a corner you do as you are told.

    If God forbid you are fighting for your life then that is what you'll have to do.

    Remember you fall to the level of your training, so don't expect to be able to change up a gear if you've never done it in class.
  11. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    It's quite an unrealistic situation though. It really does happen like the movies. Generally people who want to stab you do so before you are aware of it. People who want something show you the knife first. Give them what they want.
  12. 8limbs38112

    8limbs38112 Valued Member

    Thanks, but I am aware that giving them what they want is the best thing to do.

    But that really didn't answer my question. I was really only asking because I practice kali pekiti tirsia. Even if I am wasting my time with the knife fighting, its all good because it has empty hand too. But I was really asking out of curiousity, because a great deal of my training is with knives.

    Let's say hypothetically speaking, that there is a villain that wants to destroy the planet earth. I hold in my hands the magic stone, that if it fell into the wrong hands, could destroy the whole planet. The Goddess of Peace and war gave me a knife to protect myself from the villain and told me I need to protect the magic stone at all costs. I'm walking in an alley with a dead end. Then the villain appears with a knife. I can't run away because the alley is too narrow, so I must have a knife fight with the villain. Fortuantely for me I am a pekitit tirsia practitioner. Does this increase my chances of survival and keeping the magic stone a lot. Or just a small percentage like with knife defense training.

    After all, you never know when you will end up in a situation like this. :D
  13. 8limbs38112

    8limbs38112 Valued Member

    I am asking out of curiousity.
  14. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    1. Do you have the wherewithal to take another man's life.

    2. Do you have it in you to fight for your own life.

    3. Are you prepared for the consequences.

    4. Have you put yourself in the position of being against the wall with a serious attack in your training sessions.

    You can answer your own question by being honest about the above.
  15. 8limbs38112

    8limbs38112 Valued Member

    The class is pretty new. I signed up for it because I have to train weekends because my schedule is too hectic m thru Thursday, so Saturdays is more convenient. I guess the training will answer my question and I will just have to be patient. I was just asking because the largest component of training to my knowledge is with knives, so it made me curious. After all, if I'm learning something it would make me feel better to know that what I am learning is worth it's salt. But like I said, there is an empty hand component too, and the main reason I am training it is because it fits well with my schedule. I was basically asking out of curiousity.
  16. 8limbs38112

    8limbs38112 Valued Member

    I don't think I will ever get in a REAL knife fight. I was asking out of curiousity.
  17. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    "In a knife fight, the loser is ashes, but the winner is charcoal".

    Now, of course good knife duelling training will help you in a knife duel. It will likely help you in proportion to the quality of your training. And, regardless of the reality of the situation, knife sparring is pretty fun, as long as people realize the inherent silliness of the situation from a modern SD perspective. In 18th(?) century Spain or Italy, different situation. People really did duel with knives there. Which is both stupid but kind of awesome.

    Why knife fighting is inherently more dangerous than say a duel with swords is because of the range and how timing works at that range. Without going into George Silver at length (which you should all do on your own time), if someone can hit you with a weapon without taking a step, it's insanely difficult to react in time. To use a knife, you have to at least get to just outside that range to launch an attack, which means both you and the other guy are more or less "in the pocket". Hilarity ensues, people get cut and stabbed, and both are usually injured horribly. You are hitting each other at "time of the hand", and that's the fastest time there is.

    It's messy. Every once in a while, someone gets lucky and walks away without a scratch. Don't bet on that being you.
  18. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    In your scenario you will still die.

    Somewhere along the line, if you continue training, you'll think about that situation differently.

    Eventually it'll be very different, assuming someone has tried to actually hurt you.

    For now, just train :)
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Knife vs knife i always teach teach the 30% rule

    If you are better than him, he dies - 30%
    If he is better than you, you die - 30%
    If you are equally skilled both die - 30%

    That leaves 10% for environmental considerations, flukes and pure bad luck
  20. 8limbs38112

    8limbs38112 Valued Member

    Is it just me or is the 30 percent rule confusing?

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