Salute everyone. I've been having some concerns about the way my kenpo instructor has been teaching me. Right now I'm working on material for the 1st out of 3 brown belts and I've worked fairly hard to get where I am. So far I've learned a fairly standard cirriculum for a traditional kenpo club; 30 techs per belt; short 1, long 1, short 2, long 2, short 3, long 3, book set; tiger and crane, etc..... Anyway my instructor is a great guy and I enjoy learning from him. I believe that he is honest and loves the art of kenpo. There is nothing wrong in that department. I've been trying to really dig into the meanings and possibilities of the techniques and katas and the more I learn or discover the more I am getting the feeling that much of what he is teaching me is not up to the level that it should be. For example, movements that he teaches me in kata are unmotivated by any kind of self-defense scenario. When I look online at descriptions of the American kenpo forms or videos from Master Tracy (not cheap) I find out that movements which baffled me before are quite simple responses to two-handed wrist grabs, for example. I'm constantly trying to find the power principles behind movements that he is not teaching me and I have to develop them myself. It seems as if someone somewhere down the line was a lazy or incompetent instructor and eventually passed on crappy techniques to my instructor. Things are simplified and important principles are left out or totally ignored. When I ask him what a certain movement means or where exactly does the strike land on the opponent's body, he usually doesn't know and he is 2nd degree black belt. The problem is that he is a nice guy and doesn't know that he doesn't know. That's just how he was taught. So I have two different version of just about everything that he is teaching; one version for belt tests and the dojo and another version for myself compliled from video tapes from Larry Tatum, Al Tracy, and James Ibrao as well as descriptions online of Tracy and Parker versions. Traditionally loyalty to the instructor has been important and I don't want him to know that I am not really following his teachings. Every kenpo person in this town is connected with each other and if I wanted to find another teacher I would have to drive 2 hours every week and probably start over at yellow. I have an urge to learn from someone else because although I practice every day I believe that my progress is slow. My other thought is that eventually it's not the instructor that makes the kenpo, but if I really want to learn then I will have to dig into it myself and do my best on my own. I should take the responsibility on myself and not expect perfection from him. Anyway I'm glad I got that off my chest and I need some advice. Salute, Flashing Dagger.
That's a tough situation. I feel for you; shortly after I started training I became concerned about the quality of my school, mainly because I was reading everything I could about everything I could and got way ahead of my training (it's easy to read about something, harder to learn to do it). Here in this city we have 4 Kenpo schools: 3 are franchises of the same organization; and one split off from them. So you could really say they are "connected". However I was patient and now I see that there is no problem here with where I go... I am very happy with my school. I know that as people train and start to reach close to black belt, it is a lot like teenagers : they know just enough to think they know everything. and at first as I was reading your post I thought that might be the case. However I read the whole thing and now it does not seem like "teenager knowitall syndrome". Different systems use different terminology for the same thing - my fraternity borther and I recently talked after many years of lost contact and I discovered that he is a BB in Tracy Kenpo. I am studying Shaolin Kempo (Karazenpo). It took us a while to get our vocabularies aligned to where we could make sense to each other... BUT ideas like "a kata has bunkai that describe the meaning of each motion" is so basic and so important!!! Concepts at that level are not obscured by unique terminology. Your situation does not sound like a problem translating between what you are seeing from other sources and your instructor's teaching. Do you think your instructor would watch some of the tapes? I have done this: I bought some tapes from e-bay, saw some stuff I didn't understand, so I loaned the tape to my sensei, and later we discussed it. Maybe you can ask him to help you figure out something on a tape, then give him a tape that illustrates the deficiency you see in him. Could that turn on the light-bulb for him too? Wouldn't that be a benefit for both of you? If it doesn't work, what have you lost? If it doesn't work, then you know there is a real problem. So let's say that doesn't work... You say that all the Kenpo people in town are connected... did they all learn from the same person your current instructor learned from (you're screwed then haha)? How connected? Like, they are all franchisees of the same organization? Then you do have a problem. Or do you mean, they are all friends? Then you might have an opportunity to move. The trick is, how do you know the new teacher doesn't have the same problem? Do you have any events where all the kenpo schools are attending? Like a tournament or seminar? maybe you can talk to some other instructors quietly and casually and get an idea if they are "any better". If so, then maybe you can pursue moving to their school. BUT be very very careful not to use anything negative about your curernt instructor as your reason. "it's too far" "it's too hot" "its too cold" whatever but if they are all connected and you say "so and so doesn't know his stuff" that will make you at least one problem; I wouldn't take a student who slagged my friend like that. Maybe the other instructors know about your teacher, and will welcome you to their school? You will never know unless you talk to them.
Hey David, Thanks for responding. I'm sorry if I came off as a know-it-all. The last thing I want to be is arrogant and delusional. Not even Parker or Mitose or Chow or Motubu "knew it all" and I certainly do not have the skill or accomplishments that my own instructor has. I only have alot of questions and my instructor isn't really providing the answers. For example, in a forward bow is the rear foot flat to the floor or the weight on the front ball of the foot? What are the guidelines for covering and pivoting to opponents at different directions? I know that he has me moving my blind side into an opponent when turning directions and I have started having pain in my left knee I think because I have been doing roundhouse kicks without pivoting my rear leg. Who Knew?!! Questioning him works sometimes and sometimes does not. He teaches techniques without covering or checking with the non-striking hand. I learned '5 Swords' without the checking; just "right inward block, right handsword to neck, right spearhand to abdomen, etc...." In moments that obviously call for a torque or shift from neutral to forward or vice versa (and all other sources agree, parker and tracy) I have learned the technique only using upper arm muscles. He even told me that he was not going to teach me "wing break" for a flank shoulder grab because he didn't think it was a "very good technique." Anyway I would never really bad-mouth him anyway (only complain and express my frustration over the web) and especially not in my own town. But I am afraid of hurting his feelings by studying with someone else that he knows. Thanks for letting me rant. I think I'll be OK as long as I keep digging and searching. And above all training. After all, no amount of top quality instruction would be worth dirt without some hard training. In fact it seems like sometimes repetition of something you don't understand will bring you the answer spontaneosly.
My 2 cents Every instructor has his strenghs and not all into katas so going to the Tracy videos is a good idea, that's how I learn most of the higher katas. My instructor was really into fighting and jujitsu and doesn't really like katas that much but knows that some people are good at them so he lets us borrow the tapes to learn them. Anyway every person must make kenpo their own so take knowledge from your instructor,Larry Tatum,Al Tracy etc. to make your own kenpo style that I think is the best way to do it.
I wasn't saying you were a 'know-it-all", in fact just the opposite... It's really impossibel for me to say from just 2 messages but from what you've written if I had thsoe experiences I would be trying to find a better instructor. You've documented here multiple examples of his lack of anything but the most basic memorization of techniques. How much worse does it need to be before you can justify doing better for yourself?
In many ways it’s a sign of our times. There seems to be so many people breaking away from their teachers too early, when they have still have much to learn. Yes it is true that instructors do have strength and weaknesses. They should; however be able to transmit the correct knowledge.
kenpo HI i think it it's great that you question anything you get taught or learn, but all forms 3 and above ,as you probably already know are technique based ,for example destructive twins ,grip of death ,circling wing ,gripping talon ect.so you can work them out for yourself,or with some friends from your club.some tapes are great but like all kenpo they change ,like if you get a 10 year old tatum tape and watch form four then watch him do it now the changes are masive ,also principles and concepts can also be worked out in a small group with techniques ,one attacker one defender and one bystander ,and look for checks ect together ,i get all my students to do this anyway.take five swords it is upper and lower casement destruction,with the block/ check upper casement ,you use a lower casement knee check , conturing handswords right then left into a verticle spearhand - rear cross left hooking crane -unwind right handsword ,on and on ect.i would get a few guys together and hire a hall once a week and work it out together , instructors are only a guide and giver of tools , you take what you need , but i think you have just outgrown your instructor. cheers matt
Hi, Flashing Dagger. Here's a question for you, Are you having doubts in your own or your instructors ability? He can teach/tell you all day what a strike is for or where it should land but it is up to you to make it work for yourself. ever heard the saying a thousand people a thousand different katas/patterns call them what you will. Dont chase two rabbits because you wont catch either
I would have to agree with the path of knowledge and success is laid out before you, how you take that path is dependent upon you. when asking questions about a technique or strike you say your isntructor doesnt know where the strike lands. Are you performing your material on someone for pratical application. A Kata should be a form of strikes, blocks and stances put together to simulate defense against or offensive against an opponent. If you practice your material on a fellow student at about qtr to half speed, from A-Z at least once a week, you will see where your strikes should be landing and where your body should be as well as getting a feel for balance and power. I know when i ask my instructor the same questions you asked, I get a different response. he usually says this strike goes here and this strike follows here your body should be here and going there. Salute,
comments in original post It may honestly be that he learned some diluted techniques OR never had them correctly explained. I see a lot of schools with similar problems.. its not to say their instructors are unqualified or incompitent but a natural progression of dilution from too many teacher student teacher chains. example... I have seen a particular form done by several people, and some of them do certain parts slightly different. In my stlye, once you attianed brown sash you had to go to the main Sifu (granted this was in UK so its not a big country so its geographicaly possible) every couple of months to have the kinks ironed out of your technique. Once you became a black sash you had to go back to the head sifu monthly for the same thing. By doing this it prevented too many imperfections from keeping in from dilutation... Ie... If i learn from an instructor...he teaches me a few of his flaws, and I also have my own....I then teach you, and you have my flaws, my instructors flaws AND your flaws...and so on....so after this has gone through several generations of teacher/students, if you never go back to the source to be cleaned up this is going to happen.... I now live in the states, and their are some great martial artists here too, but due to the size of the country and the nature of modern martial arts, i have seen some prety weak excuses of some things that i know are basicly right but just appear misunderstood. ALSO...as previously mentioned... some instructors do favor Kata or Forms and not sparring, or visa versa...
Sandmanjp, It seems as if that is exactly what has happened. When I compare the forms taught by my instructor with the forms written up or explained by other well-known kenpo instructors I can see many instances in which movements have been generalized and made almost meaningless through the chain of instructors. The katas and techniques that I am learning are like photocopies run through the machine too many times. I bought some videos straight from Al Tracy and also some Larry Tatum videos. There are just simply more things involved in these forms, more specifics, more purpose and just about more of everything. At this point I have decided to stay with this instructor at least until 1st black because I feel as if I should finish what I have started. I'll find another teacher after that, even if I have to drive a distance every week. Right now I think that I will do ok just focusing on the things that I know are important; flow, relaxation/tension, breathing, balance, torque, visualization, developing spontaneity in combinations, etc... By the way, what would you do? Would you find a different instructor? I quit TKD because, well, it's TKD and I didn't know anything about MA when I joined. I quit Shotokan because I was in class with children and was told that the backfist should go to the side of the head where the referee would be standing. I don't want to quit again but I would like some depth in the martial art that I study.
You know how when kids reach a certain age, they rebel against their parents? They do it because they are learning to become their own person, seperate from doing what the parents have always told them to do. Maybe that is what is going on with you? Brown belt means you have been there for awhile right? You talk like you are confident of what you are learning and what you know. Maybe your urge to think the instructor is not up to your standards is that same urge as kids have. It is time for you to be more of your own man. That is a hard time for instructors. The students might be disrespectful or hurtful. They don't really understand why they are doing what they are doing. What can the instructor say? If he can see they have reached that rebellious stage, there is not much to do about it. He can keep on talking and keep on teaching and hope that it all works out. It is helpful to be aware of the dominance games between people. That is what a kid rebelling against a parent is. Dominance struggle. Let's say you get videos or someone else's opinions and you go to your instructor and ask what the difference is. On an honest level, what you really saying to your instructor? You are saying "I do not trust you anymore, I do not believe you. Prove to me that you are better than these videos or other peoples opinions". This is martial arts. It is the nature of the field that the instructor cannot accede to demands made by a student in that way. No matter how polite you phrase the question, you are basically challenging his authority. If the instructor wants to remain an object of respect, he has to tell you to do it his way or go do it the other way. If he tries to "work" with you, the instructor is coming down to your level. I don't know about you but friends teaching friends never seems to work as well as a dominant experienced person teaching a submissive beginner person. Have you thought about talking to the other people in class about what you think? They are your equals so the conversation can be more open. Don't make it sound like you are setting up a mutiny or anything. Just say you see differences between video tapes and what you are taught. You don't understand why there is a difference. If you phrase it as "I don't think the instructor knows what he is doing because these videos are different", that sounds negative and will cause bad feelings. Trust your gut. I have left instructors I did not think were capable. Some of the decisions were the right one, some of them I screwed up big time. Made me look like an arrogant fool. When I look back on some of the arrogant ways I treated my instructors, I cringe. They took it all in stride instead of beating me senseless. Which is what I probably deserved for the thoughtless and hurtful way I behaved towards them.
what i would do QUOTE: "By the way, what would you do? Would you find a different instructor? I quit TKD because, well, it's TKD and I didn't know anything about MA when I joined. I quit Shotokan because I was in class with children and was told that the backfist should go to the side of the head where the referee would be standing. I don't want to quit again but I would like some depth in the martial art that I study" If he is a good instructor, and you feel comfortable with him, I wouldnt change just becasue he doesnt understand a few of the finer points. You could change and find out that the new instructor knows the answers to those questions but not others. Woodrow made a good point about the "coming of age" thing. You should question things... Dont question things for the sake of testing your instructors knowledge, but if their is something you are not sure about It is right that you should question. OUr head Sifu used to say that once you have reached your black belt you are then Teachable. In other words, from white to brown you are learning the basics that you need to understand your martial art. Any good instructor should encourage you to grow in your art, and Indeed want you to ask questions and experiment with techniques... I know many "Sylabus Blackbelts" and many good Martia Artists...their is a difference.. Knowing a sylabus does not make you a well rounded martial artist, knowing yourself, your art and learning to understand the concept and principles of it are what makes you a martial artist...if all a person knows are the techniques and forms layed out in the sylabus and have never felt the desire to question or the hunger to want to lern more...then that person is off the path. The Sylabus is their to guide and mark levels of achievment, and thats all.......
That's an interesting idea. At what level do you think someone is qualified to know what they need from their instructor? How would someone decide that they don't need 'tools' that they have yet to experience or even have heard about. I can't see me ever outgrowing MY instructor. he has way too much knowledge to share with me for that. (Interestingly, at 7th Degree, he seems to feel the same about his instructor) Les
Does your instructor have a Parker or Tracy background? Many times I have heard that practitioners of the Tracy or TRA-CO system's learn many more techniques than the Parker System, but they do not get the technical explanations (i.e angle of incidence/opportunity, gravitational marriage etc.)on their techniques. Even still, as I have mentioned in other posts, Kenpo is such a scientific martial art that some instructor's lack the ability to explain every principle in technical terms (i.e we may have gotten high marks in social studies or english, but struggled in our science classes because our brain doesn't think in technical terms). Read up on the Infinite Insights books and don't get discouraged. We all have things that we wish our instructors taught differently.
listen Hey Dagger, I know what you're going throught. I know that with some of the kempos and katas, my instructor dosn't give a situation where it would work. The way that I deal with it is that I make up my own situation. It might be monotonis and you may think that your instructor is lazy, but maybe he has never been in a situation where he has to use that certen kempo. It can be frustrating, but if you really like your instuctor, then you should put up with it. Maybe, you should ask the instructor to give you a situation where you can use it. Maybe he just has never been asked by a student. Well good luck with you instuctor. Bright Shadow
Damn it... I don't like your answer. I would rather you tell your instructor what you want now, if it doesn't work, leave with your instructor's blessing. Sticking around until black belt and then complaining/leaving is plain dishonest IMHO. Your instructor should know what you want, and if your instructor cannot provide that, he should send you somewhere else with his blessing. If you never make it clear what you want, then you can hardly blame your instructor, just blame yourself if things don't go right. Sorry for the harsh tone but black belt has as much meaning as you put into it. Make your black belt mean something, not just loyalty, or finishing what you started. Make it something you want, something you are taking. You don't earn blackbelt, you TAKE IT! If you want it, I mean really want it, then either take it or walk away, no regrets, no bitterness, don't look back, leave it all on the track. I ask only one question... Is your instructor willing to learn from you? Often the answer to this question is the answer to whether you should stay or not.
I think you're doing good to question your sensei, not everyone is perfect. Most good instructors know their own weaknesses and will encourage you to train in as many places as possible to get as much knowledge as you can. As far as being worried about staring over at yellow, stop. If you are doing your martial arts for the rank it's the wrong reason. Anyway, a new instructor will recognize your skill level, especially if your previous training is in their style. Be true to what you believe, and what you feel in your heart and things can only turn out for the best. good luck.
Thanks for all your replys and I have been reading all of them. Lately I've been on 'autopilot' with my training, not worring or stressing too much about progressing, but just "doing it" and things seem to be better. Physical repetition seems to be the key. I think maybe I forgot to just train and practice, practice, practice. Muscle understanding is much more powerful than thought understanding. Salute.l
Good realization. Your training, until black belt, should be more about the physical than the mental. It's good to understand the why's, but don't get too hung up about it at this level. It would only get in the way of your training, which appears you figured out on your own. Good luck in your training.
