Combat Hapkido vs Sin Moo Hapkido

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by MasterBob, Sep 28, 2005.

  1. JimH

    JimH Valued Member

    So the people who studied under Choi ,but not Ji Han Jae,are not true Hapkidoists?

    So the dispute over who used and came up with the term/name first is not the only issue,the issue is ,if you are not a follower of Ji Han Jae,you are not a true Hapkidoist?

    Ji Han Jae is not traditional or he would be teaching Choi's Daito Ryu.

    It would be more correct to say that a Person who follows Ji han Jae's art are Traditionalist to the teachings of Ji Han Jae's Sin Moo Hapkido .

    The Art of Hapkido is not owned nor was it coined by Ji Han Jae,his style,his interpretation and his art are what his followers would tend to call traditional Sin Moo hapkido.

    The Followers of Choi or Chin Il Chang or Rim or any of the others are Hapkidoists just not followers of Ji Han Jae's philosophies.

    Followers of the above mentioned men are not tarditionalists either ,only to the teachings of their Master or founder.

    Looking at the various Masters and their Federations or organizations their are many interpretations of Hapkido, to claim one as the true Hapkido ideal is false.

    We are Traditional only to that which we follow and adhere to as handed down to us.

    If the core art is Hapkido then it is Hapkido,the end result is a concept that may not be traditional by any other practioners view but it will become traditional when the followers train it,adhere to the teachings and teach it as was taught to them.

    One Day Combat hapkido maybe traditional (to its followers)

    The truth is Combat Hapkido is diverese and changing ,adapting so it will never be a traditional art,even to itself,it will always be the Instructors art form ,based upon the teachings of GMP.
    (as Jeet Kune Do exists today with a core concept of the teachings of Bruce Lee,as JKD differs from instructor to instructor, it is still JKD)

    How long can a Traditional style last before it becomes unusable,outdated,if it is not tweeked and changed to fit the times it becomes obsolete.

    If we stayed traditional in the military we would still be using clubs,the core concept of what makes soldiers are the same now as they were for the romans,but other elements change to follow the times.

    So Daito Ryu,Hapkido,Aikido,Combat Hapkido,they will all exist and have the common root system that ties us all,but traditional will be in the eyes of the followers , the arts will only stay alive and prosper through the students,so lets stop the Isolationist attitude of who has true Hapkido.
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    ***click**** mine are checked. How about yours?

    I read through the whole reply you wrote and I don't see much point in going through it point by point. Your attitude, as expressed by your writing, really says a lot about your philosophy in dealing in the martial arts and with people.

    I've offered before and the the invitation is still open, either at our school in Postdam or at any seminar. I gurarantee you'll be treated with respect and honor as our guest.

    Thank you for the invite. I have been trying to worrk out a plan to get up and train with Master Hwang at some point in time. It's is one of my "big" short term goals. I just hope that your "in person" personality and school is more polite than the "online" version.
  3. TheGnome

    TheGnome New Member

    On one hand I can understand your argument. In Judo there is pretty much one set of techniques all tested in the same groups. On the other hand, I don't feel I agree because that would mean I have not been studying Hapkido since I have moved (except for the times when I return to visit my old school). Although it is different, I still feel I study Hapkido with good Hapkido practitioners.
  4. JimH

    JimH Valued Member

    Yes...thank you for the invite yet again...I'm sorry but if you know who Master Hwang in Shik is, his status as a hapkidoist, and his abilities as a hapkidoist, why on earth would I go to a seminar conducted by John Pellegrini?

    Can you explain that to me?

    That's like asking someone who has the priviledge to drive a jaguar to try out a toyota to see if he/she likes it. There is nothing wrong with a toyota, but please...c' a little objective, eh?

    The point of experiencing training with any other GM,Master or instructor of note would be to experience THEIR take on the subject matter,known or unknown.

    To say one mans holds all the knowledge is a bit short sighted,one must see what others offer or have to say because a person can always learn at least one thing new from anyone,and if the subject matter is the same as what you have a good base in then the finding of new views and ideas would make sense.

    That is like saying to a person who studies the sword "that is so out dated where would you use that",if you never experienced the sword you would never know the answer.

    Experience all you can,from anyone you can,come away with something new or at least come away with a write off for your taxes,lol.
  5. austinso

    austinso Valued Member

    The issue is, to quote you, is to experience another Master *of note*.

    Yes the statement in of itself is valid, but the problem is that you are applying the concept to everything with blinders on...

    *Within* HKD, there is no need to visit anyone unless they are peers or seniors to Master Hwang.

    And frankly, even if all the first-hand knowledge of GM Pelligrini's rise in HKD are false, he does even register on the ruler.

    On the other hand, CH seminars that involve people from outside arts may very well be worth attending. But as you say, they must be people *of note*.

    That is just a *really* poor analogy...

    I value my time, and I don't like wasting it.

    On the other hand, some people have lots of it, so power to them that they can seek out and experience the full range of HKD out there.

  6. Utotin

    Utotin Valued Member

    Sounds like Austino likes to drink Kool Aid!
  7. TheGnome

    TheGnome New Member

    OK that was funny. Not saying I agree, but it was funny. On a more serious note...austino are you saying that you personaly would not learn something from studying from another Hapkido Master?
  8. Utotin

    Utotin Valued Member

    Old School Korean Masters are so jealous & territorial that they will do their best to convince you that you have no reason to even be interested in what another instructor has to offer, let alone another MA. I have a feeling it is all about business though. I have a feeling that a large portion are mostly worried about loosing your $$$ and the money you will generate for them if you begin teaching under THEIR banner. They will not explain it to you that way, but that is whjat it usually comes down to and if you buy that you just drank the Kool Aid.
  9. American HKD

    American HKD New Member


    Jim that' right, Ji changed the system at the same time Codified and fixed a new system.

    Ji admits he drew from 4 sources and it's not the system Choi taught.

    CH is as you said changing and if that's what the founder intended it's fine Bruce Lee also intended no fixed system. Yes I also agree CH could become a traditional system at some point as did Kuk Sool or Hwrang Do. Jeet Kune Do never becaame fixed to date but who knows.

    Only Hapkido is Hapkido in my veiw we all do the same thing in the same style, not mix and match. If I did mix and match anf put together and revised curriculum it would'nt be Hapkido anymore IMO.

    Dr He Young Kimm did just that, he took from HKD, KSW, Yudo, Bi Sul, etc and now calls his system Hanmudo. Not because it's so different but because he recognized a different way of doing things and philosophy. In fact he did it with Ji's blessing and also changed the name appropriately so.

    As far as growing and changing I think Hakido has many tools and enough applications for almost self defense.

    What changed from 50 years ago that it has to be revised now? Not much I think.
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2005
  10. JimH

    JimH Valued Member

    I used your quote,my reply was towards that quote but not soley towards you,as others read these pages they need to see that what one person believes is not always the answer.

    Quote JimH
    "GM,Master or instructor of note "
    This meant Grand Masters,Masters and Instructors of Note ,meaning that anyone can be a teacher and if a person has a black Belt but good Concepts,they are neither Grand Master or Master,but they are an instructor noted for having something learnable.

    Quote Austinso
    *Within* HKD, there is no need to visit anyone unless they are peers or seniors to Master Hwang.

    This is a noble claim and one to be expected of a loyal student,but there are some Great Hapkidoists(and other Martial artists) who have things to offer and benefit aside from the Grand Masters.

    quote Austinso
    And frankly, even if all the first-hand knowledge of GM Pelligrini's rise in HKD are false, he does even register on the ruler.

    Sorry I never mentioned GMP,all I said is there are people out there worth seeing and training with,in and out of hapkido.
    If GMP does not do anything for you do not stop searching as I am sure GM Hwang does not have all the answers either.
    (I had opportunity to study with Chin Il Chang the only Live in student of Choi and he did not have all the answers so I doubt Master Hwang has,but that is for you to see)

    quote JimH
    That is like saying to a person who studies the sword "that is so out dated where would you use that",if you never experienced the sword you would never know the answer.

    Quote JimH
    That is like saying to a person who studies the sword "that is so out dated where would you use that",if you never experienced the sword you would never know the answer.

    quote Austinso
    That is just a *really* poor analogy...

    (and your Jaguar/toyota was a good one,lol.)

    Do you know the relevance of the Sword work as applied to Daito ryu and then to Hapkido and aikido?

    Quote Austinso
    I value my time, and I don't like wasting it.

    do you watch TV ,go to the movies,go to clubs or bars or read and post on the computer?
    If so many may consider those wastes of time,but to each his own,wastes and wants are individual concepts.
    To Austinso and to all who have read this far:

    If martial arts is your hobby or sport or method of self defense it would be good to find time to experience things in the arts outside of your school and outside of what your master says.
  11. Utotin

    Utotin Valued Member

    Stuart, so you are not necessarily making any judgment regarding the effectiveness of any HKD variant, you are merely saying that it is either HKD or it isn't. If you alter you HKD to the point where it no longer, or only superficially resembles "original" HKD then it is no longer HKD regardless of how effective it is (or is not).

    Ok, I see where you are coming from.
  12. austinso

    austinso Valued Member

    I always wonder why people like to talk out of their it because you've lodged your head quite deep within it that you can't speak otherwise?

  13. Hapkid0ist

    Hapkid0ist Tsalagi Pride!!!!

    OK let me try this again. All I know is what I am told. I don't know how to put it any simpler so my words are not confusing .

    The first point. Yes most schools that are recognized do keep with it and there are no problems with them, but that does not mean that an eye should not be kept on them. If they do nothing wrong then it is all good no big deals.
    The second point, If the schoolturns out to not be affiliated then Nobody bothers with it. Even when you ask the instructor, sometimes they claim to be affiliated. If they say no, well I usually just watch cause I enjoy watching people perform and let it go at that. If they say they are then I do as I am asked and the GMs take it from there.

    Now could my GM be not so truthfull to me? Yes, but for what reason. And why can't they care about what is going on in HKD. A lot of these guys are getting very old and are realizing thier mortality. They feel if TKD and TSD and others can do it so can they. The fact is, with the founding GMs we don't know what is going on, what they are up to and what plans they truly have. And for the most part only a few people ever will. But like I said, i you truly want to know anything obout the council and what they do then the best thing is to try and ask one of the GMs. They have all the info you could want, if you can get it out of them. Its like you said a lot of them keep to themselves. But if they or no one else even tries to do anything about HKD then we will always be fractioned.
    As for my Gm I thought I told you, sorry bout that. The link is no longer up. A new instructor took that studio over and ran it into the ground, so my GM closed it and as soon as I get the green (In a few months ) I am re opening up here in cali.
    My Gm is Grangmaster J.B. Lee-James Bond Lee, Lee Jung Bai.
    James Bond Lee is the name the government gave him in the 70s when he came to the states. He goes by J.B. Lee though.
    Let me give ya a quick bio.
    He began training under GM Choi when he was 12, this was like a year after GM JI. He stayed by Choi's side till he passed in 86. He aslo trained with Ji but I don't know when that started. Now as some may know Ji only got to third dan under Choi, but I asked my teacher about this and he did confirm it. BUT, I also asked a question to. Since he trained with both and JI was his friend I asked if he showed GM Ji what Choi taught him. He looked at me and smilled very big and said I was to smart for my own good, and said no more about it. My GM got his 9th dan in I believe the early to mid 80s, but I'm not sure, I forgot what his certificate said.
    Now my GM was also a Korean war orphan. So his attitude was molded by this as well. Before his ex wife and he divorced we had 42 schools world wide. He was forced to liquidate a lot of his assets in the divorce. I din't know how many survived. Most likely just the ones that a student owned and his name was used, but all the ones that were owned by him and students were paid to run where closed down. As he says, now his ex is a millionair.
    He is 64 now and struggling to get back a symbolance of what he had before he passes.

    I am an open book so anything you want to know please ask. I'm more than happy to share. I aired out my skeletons long agoe.
  14. austinso

    austinso Valued Member

    I think the criteria for who I think would be worthwhile I've made quite clear.

  15. Hapkid0ist

    Hapkid0ist Tsalagi Pride!!!!


    After thinking about this I have to agree. It is either HKD or its not.
    Now I don't know a lot about CHKD, but if it sticks to the core techniques, principals and ideology, all the things that make HKD what it is then it is HKD to me. So those that train in it, does it?
  16. Hapkid0ist

    Hapkid0ist Tsalagi Pride!!!!

    From what I have been told back in the day HKD had more of a karate influince. More so than being balanced. This is around the time GM Ji did Game of Death. How do yall see this.?
  17. bcullen

    bcullen They are all perfect.

    Ashida Kim is someone *of note* but I don't think I want to learn MA from him.

    Regarding who has the "true Hapkido", two words: STOP IT! The petty bickering does nothing to help Hapkido or MA in general.

    You know what's going to happen if you don't: One of the GM's will jump another GM at a seminar in Germany and Bullshido will post the video of them rolling around on the ground as an example of Hapkido in action. :rolleyes: :Angel: :D
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2005
  18. Utotin

    Utotin Valued Member

    I did not pull this conclusion out of thin air buddy. I admit that there are definitly exceptions, but in my experience it all ultimately comes down to money and ego. If you do anything that is percieved as having a negative impact on their bottom line you are in trouble.

    Thats when you are gonna get reported to the Grandmaster's Council :p
  19. Hapkid0ist

    Hapkid0ist Tsalagi Pride!!!!

    I believe traditional is more of a mindset in HKD more so than anything else, not technique or dress. It goes to basic techniques, core principals, mindset phylosphy and fighting style (ie do you bounce around like TKD or do you conserve energy.)
    HKD is progressive at its very nature. Techniques are gona change and get thrown out. Instructors are going to teach it differently based on their prefrences and comforts, but as long as it follows the basics of what makes HKD what it is then it should not be a problem. CHKD included.
  20. American HKD

    American HKD New Member


    Yes that's exactly correct 100%.

    Thank you for getting it!

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