Please...check your sensitivities at the door, huh? I use "so-called" because I don't know who came up with the notion of "traditional HKD". It seems to be a term that is bandied about by CHists such as yourself to differentiate what they do. It is not a term I used until I found this forum... Do correct me if I am wrong in my interpretation. Just call it "hapkido" and have done with it... Again...it seem to me that you *in particular* make the demarcation for some as yet indecipherable reason... Yes...thank you for the invite yet again...I'm sorry but if you know who Master Hwang in Shik is, his status as a hapkidoist, and his abilities as a hapkidoist, why on earth would I go to a seminar conducted by John Pellegrini? Can you explain that to me? That's like asking someone who has the priviledge to drive a jaguar to try out a toyota to see if he/she likes it. There is nothing wrong with a toyota, but please...c'mon...be a little objective, eh? Though I must say it strikes me as a bit arrogant to even put them on the same footing... But I digress... My *point* is that if you have trained/taught in "non-CH HKD", and then train/teach CH, then why on earth would anyone expect there to *be* a difference? You are taking all that knowledge gleened from whatever years you trained in a "so-called" traditional school, and then simply joining another organization. That's it. The true difference will arise from the cream of the crop from CH (without prior Hapkido experience) and the cream of the crop from 2nd generation masters. But out of curiosity, who exactly are they in CH? Well thank God for that, eh? Well...there you go. Throw out some other non-sequitor jibe about non-CH masters that comes with the recruiting package... If you want to see how complete HKD can be *without* going outside of HKD, then I can rhyme off a few masters to check out... Well it seems like around here it is the CH people who started calling things "traditional", whereas the non-CH people just call things HKD (except for Stuart who believes that Sin Moo is the only true one). And the invite goes both ways. You know who Master Hwang is, I think. One direction or another, I'm sure it will be enlightening. Austin
Greetings, Your in New York right? Ok invite me to one of your next seminars in New York I'll make every effort to come as your guest.
For me: TRADITIONAL is attitude. It is teaching a moral background, healing ie... accupunture and accupressure, basic bonesetting and minor techniques to fix the stress to the body as it develops, it is in the development of the ki and harmoniztion between the body and the mind. At first thought the words Hapkido and traditional seem like an oximoron, kinda like Civil war, military intel. I say this becouse HKD is a very progressive and eclectic art at its very nature, and as I saw someone else had put it one of the first MMAts. But when you get to understand the goals af a HKD practitioner not just another MAist, you understand that it truly does fit. But, thats just me.
Intent is a hard thing to get across ,especially when it is a written form. We all read it as we intend the writer to have written without knowing the writers intent,it is best to just read the posts as informative over any ill intent. ....................................................................................................... NJ Howard, As to your question on the number of techniques white to balck in CH. I did a quick scan of the older white to black belt videos and found there are approximately 210 techniques in the requirements at that time. I do not know what the count is since the newer changes are specified as each belt ranking now,sorry. In the school I attend we have the following ; white to yellow 34 techniques yellow to green 34 techniques green to blue 34 techniques blue to red 34 techniques 2nd red to first red 34 techniques first red to black 76 techniques. (the black belt test is actually two responses of our choice to each of a list of varied attacks :12 wrist,20 body/garment,10 against punches,8 knife,10 short stick,10 cane,6 ground grappling) I hope this helps answer your question.
American HKD, There is a clinic a 3 hour event being held in New Jersey on Friday Oct 14,the cost is 40 dollars and the 3 hours (7-10) will be all GMP. It would be Great to meet you,if you are able to attend. (some others from here,this board will be there) The event is being held By Master Frank Huff and Brian Mccann At: Self Defense America 4411 RTR,9 North Howell,NJ. 07731 More information or conatct numbers are available at the ICHF web site www.ICHF.com ALL Hapkidoists and ALL other arts are welcome The dress is Tee Shirt and Sweat Trousers,since it is a training clinic we do not wear uniforms or rank as we all agree to participate and learn from GMP and each other,if people wish to wear their uniforms and rank that is also all right.
In the traditional aspect I also see that what makes us traditional is following our mindset and how we fight. I do not see a majority of HKD taught in TKD schools as traditional unless it is taught appart from the TKD ciriculum. Also some of these hybrid HKS systems where it is more of another arts fighting style. We do not waste energy, we don't bounce and we don't play games.
I know I have not contributed to the conversation. Basically, because we have been down this road before, and I know where it goes. I did have one question to Hapkidoist regarding your spying activities. . I don't really understand, why you do this. Just because your GM says so? what does that say about your GM's character. I find this silly in the sense that yeah it might work at some Mc Dojang's, but I garantee the one time you try this at someone's school where the GM is very skilled in Hapkido, and has been training for alot longer than you. I would love to see you go to our HQ in Korea, and try your little spy techniques on GM Chang. He would drag you out of the school by your ear, like a school boy. Secondly, who is your GM? and what signifigance is this GM council you speak of? I find it very interesting, that your saying the Korean goverment would get involved if the school was (fraudulent). when it is known that there is only 3 Hapkido organizations that are even recognized by the Korean goverment to issue Dan rank. And I'll give you a guess at 1 of them. I don't mean to come off agressive, I just find this bothers me.
Hey D.W. I am not trying to be a jerk, I am just curious about all this. Basically I am used to an extremely fractured HKD community and I really can't imagine that any master's really care that much about what any other Master is doing unless their business territory overlaps. Who is on this GM council? What HKD organizations do they oversee? If a school's HKD was suspect & reported to HQ what would the reprecussions be? Again, I am just honestly curious how this all works. I will admit that I have been sent to "visit" other HKD and TKD schools at the request of my old master, usually pretending I was a prospective student, to see what's happening at competing schools and gather as much info as I could on class sizes, tuition, skill of the head instructer, etc. Its pretty fun to do and also pretty informitive if you have any interest in opening up your own school. I am editing my post upon reading Mike's post- I personally have only done this to McDojo type schools. The only GM's of any significance I have done this to were GM Jun Chong when he opened up his Santa Monica TKD/HKD school in Bong Soo Han's neighborhood and all the GM's in the L.A. area got super ****ed. One of his instructors tried to show me and my buddy how neat HKD was and needless to say we got a big laugh out of it.
No biggie. The Grandmasters council is a concil of all the GMs recognized by the Korean Gov. They regularly inspect schools that are also recognised by the Korean Gov. as well. Basically they are the old school GMs, the original founding fathers. It all revolves around Korean recognision. If you are not doing what they believe is at par then the studio in question can loose their recognission and any students in the school can loose their recognized status from the Korean Gov. as well. I think simply it is a control thing by the old Korean GMS. Korean arts are the only one I know of where eventually everyone has to be GM of the system. This is as told to me by my GM and 2 other old GMs, one in Canada and another out of D.C. Now I have never been at a meeting,it is usually held in Korea, and only know what I am told. I have no reason not to believe those that tell me till proven otherwise.
As I said I am a quiet observer. And yes I do it becouse it was a request. If I happen by someplace that says they teach HKD I sit and watch and let my GM know what I say. The GMs make any judgements or descisions on that info.
When I observe it is simple non intrusive. If I see something that seems wierd or so I let him know. It basically started this way. He told me one day that anytime a certian few of us (his senior belts) where at his studios or any one that represented him to be sure to observe and report back anything we knew to be wrong. And in his words best I can say. " You do same any HKD studio you see. Tell me if anything wrong I take to council." Simple I know what I am told and asked of. Like I said it to me is an issue where I believe that the older Koreans have this thing with them all wanting to be in charge. It is their way of keeping tabs on eachother. Seriously, I believe that we will always be fractioned as bad as we are as long as we just MIND OUR OWN. We should be sure to observe all HKD studios we run across and let the word out about the ones that are bogus. This constant, its not my school and not my business attitude will only help to keep us the way we are, so disorganised and constantly at each others throats. Believe it or not there are some people and some older GMs out there who do care more about HKD than themselves, their reps, their petty issues. And they would love to see us as at least a slightly organized group. Not what we are now which seems to me to be so scattered, confused and always fighting amongst ourselves, it is crazy. I'm not saying people should go into studios and say hey your wrong, or your a McDojang. I don't do that. What I'm saying is that we should be ever watchfull of these poor schools and keep the GMs, teachers, student's, the community up to par so that when someone want to try HKD they get an honest experience and they make their descisions based on that. There are people in higher anks who are just getting tired of how things are. The misconceptions and lies that surround us. And they are trying to do something about it. It is a slow process, but at least it is something.And maybe someday we can be as well respected and as organized as we dream of. But if you do nothing to make a diff, then you have no place to complain, no place to critisize.
I understand where yall are comming from. It was wierd to me to at first, but I care more for HKD and its future than my petty wants. But I think people are confusing what I do. its like I said its just observing. No one ever knows who I am, I just go in as someone who is curious about the school, the class. Example. A little while back I say a school that advertised Traditional HKD. I went in to watch as someone who was interested in training there, and It was TKD. Not a TKD class but the teacher was pushing it off as traditional HKD. I have studied TKD before, and what I saw was TKD. I watched for a while, thanked the instructor for permiting me to watch his class and told my GM what I saw. My GM went with it from there, the rest is not my business. I am not in a high enough position to get to know what happens next. Don't get me wrong, he was a nice guy, and it may not have been a Korean recognized HKD studio. I didn't see any Association patches or anything anywhere, so nothing may have happened. If he is not recognized by the Korean Gov. then there is nothing that can really be done. Neither he or his instructor can be talked to by the GM council. But if someone asks me about the studio, I will tell them that it seemed to me to actually be TKD. Now if I am asked to join a class or someone wants to use me to show a technique and it is not to good, I'm not going to( play along ) or make it work just becouse I don't want someone to look bad. As a HKD student I believe we all have a moral duty to be honest with our techniques. Not trying to be a butt, but not going to fraud myself or someone else either. But this is when you can do something like say, hey we learned it this way, why don't you give it a shot and see what you think, instead of maybe just laughing or something and walking away shaking your head. No one will learn the right ways if never shown.
So they oversee multiple federation & organizations. So if they catch someone school affiliated from the IHF teaching HKD that was not up to snuff what happens? I can't imaging that action would be taken against the entire IHF? Would theis GM council get the Korean government to put some pressure on the IHF to do something about it? Then if there is no follow up, or the GM who that school is affiliated with choses to do nothing what happens? Do they revoke the GM's rank? What about a school that is not really affiliated with any organization in Korea, or independent organizations headed by a GM here in america (or any other country but Korea) and unaffiliated with the Korean Government?. I know of a few of those. Are they just written off, or is there anything that can be done to enforce good HKD standards among those schools.
They oversee only Korean recognized organizations. The Korean gov as far as I know doesn't really do much, it just the council. If they catch someone who is bugus they reprimand the teacher and try to correct the problem. If it is severe they withdraw the persons recognision. Many people don't care if they are recognized though. It is an action taken against individuals. They would also go to that instructors teacher first to remedy the problem. This is as much as I was told and could really understand. Mt GM has been in the states for over 30 years and could care less how good his english is. As for nonKorean recognized schools from what I understand, there is nothing that can be done. That is where the serious HKD community should come in. Word of mouth is a strong tool. Don't advertise falsly to make money off of our name. If it is not HKD or only has an HKD influince then it should not be called HKD. Self-defense, Karate, whatever just not HKD, but that is where we come in. Like I said many do not care about recognison. But we can do something as a community to make a diff. As for what happens to the GM of a recognized school when they do not do what the council wants, well I don't know. I asked and was politly told that this was Korean business. The easiest thing to do is to ask one of the old GMs all about it, if they will talk about it. It took me years to gain the trust I have from my GM. To me he is like a grandfather. As far as I know I am the only non Korean student (adult) who has ever even gotten a hug from him with genuine effection.
Hapkidoist, And, here is why it does not make sense, and why it bothers me. 1: most of the schools I have seen under or affiliated with the organizations recognized by the Korean goverment KHF, IHF etc. in my opinion do a good jod of holding true to good Hapkido techniques. Because they do a good job, and are overseen by there federations as far as proper grading, and teaching of Hapkido. Then what would be the purpose of checking on these schools? most likely they are keeping things legit. 2: Now, you said organizations and schools that are not oversen by the Korean goverment, like alot of the schools here in the U.S. Nothing can be done about these types of schools that claim to teach Hapkido, when they do not. Again, if nothing can be done, than what purpose is there to spy on these types? see my point? Sorry to say, but misconceptions and lies have existed since Hapkido began. And usually it comes from the top, like the GM's you speak of who are on this council you talk about. No offense to anyone, but look at what happened to the KHF in the past, and the Kido Hae. This is why certain GM's keep to themselves. Mine, Ji, Han, Chang Chin-Il, GM Lim, Kim etc. I could go down the list. Now I'm not saying these GM's still don't offer good Hapkido, or still try and spread the art, which these one's I have listed do a pretty good job of. But, for the most part they could care less about politics, or what schools do what. Why? because it has been done before, and basically they are tired of it. Look, I my self would loveto see a bigger communion between all the Hapkido organizations out there, but I don't think it will ever happen. It has been tried before. The founder Choi Young-Sool tried it to no avail. So, if he could not get it done, it will never be. Also, just out of curiosity. You never gave me an answer on who your GM is? could you answer please?
Did a little research on the net. James Bond Lee is his GM. Here is a link to their school: http://hapkidokarate.net/index_002.htm
What makes one style or kwan "traditional" and another one not? I suppose everyone has a different definition. Webster defines tradition as "Belief, custom, narrative, etc. transmitted by word of mouth from age to age. Religious doctrine presereved orally from generation to generation." I guess that means that "traditional" Hapkido would have to have been around long enough to be passed down to another generation. That sounds fair enough. CH is certainly not a traditional kwan. It hasn't existed long enough. But as time passes, it will hopefully continue to grow and establish it's place in the Martial arts community. it is and always will be younger than many of the other established kwans. But make no mistake, Combat Hapkido is Hapkido. Is it pure Hapkido? Probably not. The system does employ techniques and concepts from other art forms. This may preclude it from ever being considered a traditional style in some circles. And that's fine. But that certainly does not make CH a bad system. IMO ther are very few bad systems, just bad practitioners.
Greetings I said this many time here but I'll say it again for everyone. Firstly if you believe for example Ji Han Jae was the founder of Modern Hapkido you must understand that system was Codified in the early 60s in Ji's school Sung Moo Kwan. That is Hapkido period end of story! Hapkido is a set system like Judo, Shotokan, Wing Chun, or any other traditonal system you can think of. Hapkido is not a free for all as people mistakenly believe which causes all these problems IMO. Next question. A traditional kwan is one that has kept the teachings of Ji's system "IN TACT" and has not altered or modifed the contents. Examples of Associations who kept tradition pure are: Sin Moo (additional Philosophy), KHA, KHF, a few are very close with minor alterations, Kim Jin Pal (added forms), Dr H. Kimm, HS Myung (added forms), Bong Soo Han, and a few others. Examples of Associations that don't are: ICHF (mixed with several systems), IHF (mixed with Aikido), and others. To be clear I never said anywhere that off shoot HKD systems are bad[/U], no good, etc., but I said they are not HAPKIDO because HKD is only one thing and that is Ji's system as he intended. In some cases these off shoots systems shouldn't even be be called Hapkido they deviated and altered the system too much. For example Jeet Kune Do is not called Combat Wing Chun, but could have been marketed that way had Bruce Lee been commercially inclined as is GM P. If you follow this logic it's very black & white and makes all this garbage of who's hapkido and who's not very simple.
