Cimande Banten

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Narrue, Dec 21, 2005.

  1. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Just wondering if any of you knew anything about Cimande Banten, What do you think of it, the history, What is the main aspects etc
  2. Guru Jim

    Guru Jim New Member


    Cimande Banten is actually (I hope this is the right one), Poekoelan Tjimande Batin is the Five Dragon Silat. They are Poekoelan Tjimindie (Wetzel System) Pentjak-Silat. In the Poekoelan Community once you start teaching you are to place a third name to the art, as I have done with my Pukulan Tjiminde Malay, William Saunder with his Pukulan Cimande Pusuka, and Barbara Niggle with Poekoelan Tjimindie Tulen. Willy always said once you learn the art of Poekoelan you make it your own. Some of Willy students have total re-named their art.

    This style teaches Stance and how to move from stance to stance in a flowing manor. Kuntao for personal protection, this isn't actually kuntao. It actually called Bela Diri (Self-Defense), but Willy Wetzel called it Kuntao and the name stuck. It also relies on Langkahs, and Kembangan (Long forms) to teach the student to flow from technique to technique. Willy also taught Dynamic Tension forms and Baiting the attacker into an opening they think is wide open. Once they attack, the Poekoelan student closed the open destorying the attacking limb. The Poekoelan student fights from the "Crawl" (Movement from stance to stance, with hand baiting moves) can be defensive or offensive. The Poekoelan sparring in classes comes from two students sparring in the middle of a circle of fellow students. The students forming the circle work on their "Crawl" techniques, as the two students’ sparrs each other. This is known as the "Circle of Friends". The sparring can get very rough with bloody noses, and dislocated fingers. However, most school now doesn’t allow the class to get that rough anymore.

    This is a quick post, and I hope I answered your question on the right silat style.
  3. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Thank you Guru Jim for the info, I’m not sure if it is the same style that you practice though because none of the pendekers in this style have heard of William Saunder or even know who he is. I will see if I can find a more correct name for this style.
  4. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    Hi Guru Jim,

    The Kembangan is actually the 'Flower dance', and not in fact any type of form (which in itself implies there is a fixed structure to it).

    No 2 kembangans should ever look the same, as it is supposed to be the open expression of one's silat.

    Perhaps you can elaborate on the Kembangan you have learnt. It is one of my favorite areas of silat.

    Merry Christmas.
  5. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    William Sanders art is the one I study. You can find some good info on him at
  6. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

    Banten is a Province in West Jawa

    Peace to all,

    Guru Jim, Banten is (now) a province in the West of Jawa, the English used to call it Bantam, and in the 17'th century it was the Islamic Sultanate that owned the port Sunda Kelapa, now called Jakarta, Indonesia's capital city. It is a strongly Islamic province full of pendekars, including many Cimande players. Right now a pendekar is running for governorship there.

    Cimande is a name of a village (the Sanders group's website have a map showing the area, near Bogor) and also a silat 'style'. Here in Indonesia Cimande (silat) players call it an 'aliran'. Aliran literally means a flow or a stream and and in a silat context it means more or less an -ism. Like in visual arts you have realism, surrealism, expressionism, impressionism, minimalism and so on. Cimande is one of the most influential silat sources in Indonesia.

    Batin is an Islamic concept which is the opposite of Dzahir (also in Indonesia spelt and pronounced Lahir). Lahir means born, outward, material, while batin means inner, of the spirit, the opposite of material. Ke-batin-an means spiritualism. In silat the term silat batin means silat of the batin (spirit). Traditionally Cimande silat students begin with working on the batin with alot of fasts and dzikir (chanting the names of Allah) before they begin their sitting drills.

    Tjimindie in Indonesia doesn't mean anything and if anyone can explain I would be very interested to know why the Dutch pesilats ever called their systems Tjimindie. Tjimande would be the Dutch spelling of Cimande, but we stopped using that spelling in the early 1970's -but Tjimindie?

    Banten is also famous for alot of 'ilmu batin' (ilmu means science, knowledge) and the performances of this silat is traditionally called debus which is basically a show of invinciblity. People walk on fire, climb ladders of sharp swords and so on. Historically debus was used by the Wali's to get people attracted to Islam by demonstrating the magical powers of the spirit.

    Warm salaams to all,
    and to you who are celebrating,
    Merry Christmas.

  7. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Bit off the subject but how many Gurus and Pendekars are in William Saunders School because there seams to be a lot. If I join will I be a pendekar in time for next Christmas, It would look good on my CV, Pendekar or Guru XXX :D
  8. Silk Road

    Silk Road New Member

    Salaams to All,

    Kiai Carita beat me to the punch on this one with regard to the geography and historical data! I'll just add that the European representative of a respected Banten Cimande organization has a website at Its a great website with plenty of pics and a bona fide 'ijazah.'

    Merry Xmas,
  9. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

    Gorka Echarri's Cimande

    Peace to all,

    Nice to see you post Silkroad! Gorka's website is very interesting, thankyou for putting a link to it. Narrue, if you look through Gorka's website you will get all the answers to your Cimande Banten question... It seems that Gorka is also on the path to being knowledgable on keris, at least he has visited Yogyakarta and met the most famous Mpu alive.

    I really appreciate the way Gorka has humbly called himself just plain Gorka and taken his Macan Guling style to France intact without 'sexing it up'. This is the spirit of a true Cimande Pendekar. Gorka is not claiming to be a pendekar and actually is spreading the knowledge of the school he learned from so that his success is also the success of his teachers and his school. His frequent visits to Banten and Jawa show that he is really interested in silat and the culture that gave birth to it and is not in silat for megalomaniacal reasons. I would say that Gorka has 'ilmu padi' - the knowledge of the rice plant, which is a characteristic of a true pendekar.

    Anyone can actually claim to be a pendekar, but claiming to be a pendekar (in Indonesia) would show that you were really not one. To be a pendekar you must be a silat expert who upholds adat and adab and protects the weak and the poor. If you do that Narrue you too will be a pendekar. Some gurus in Indonesian schools do give the title pendekar to their advanced students but you would not introduce yourself as one.

    Warm salaams to all, and again in the spirit of the season
    Mewwy Quismass.

  10. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    I was joking about wanting to be a pendekar so it would look good on my CV ;) In reality I don’t even tell people that I do Martial arts.

    Thank you for the information though, why are there no books in the English language about Silat, almost every other Martial art except Silat?
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2005
  11. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Very interesting, can you please tell me a little about these Wali because I keep hearing their name crop up in Silat but don’t know much about them except that they were saints and were somehow connected with Alchemy.
  12. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Here are some Pendekars of Cimande Banten

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  13. Silk Road

    Silk Road New Member

    Pak Kiai,

    One thing that I have observed in the West is that many western perguruan tend to give the title of 'guru' in place of a black-belt. As we know, a black-belt is not a teaching license. So there is a lot of confusion regarding terminology (which you may have noticed)

    What I would like to know from you, is: which is higher in the cultural hierarchy, guru or pendekar? Does the title of guru carry the same social implications as that of pendekar? Do my questions make any sense?!?!?!

    BTW Narrue, I think I know that somewhat ghostly pendekar from your picture! I see him from time to time after a long night of celebrating. Funny, I never new he was Indonesian. I thought he lived in a Jack Daniels bottle.


  14. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    I'll ignore the blatent attempt at attacking Pendekar Sanders, simply because I wont be drawn into your petty attempts at sniping at my teachers. :rolleyes:

    However, I advise you not to do it again

    And I suggest you spell peoples names correctly if you want to try to offend them. :rolleyes:
  15. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Are you talking about the guy you cant see in the photo, magical powers you have there!!!! :rolleyes:
  16. CQC

    CQC Arsenal Gear's A.I

    Of course it makes sense!! Its not like "the chicken or the egg" question.
    Indeed, there's a confusion over the term. So lemme explain anything that I know about the term.

    "Guru" means teacher in Malay (yeah, the same word can be found in sanskrit, indian...malay archipelago once was filled with these influences).
    The teaching profession is highly respected,because its a noble profession. In silat, those who say that they're the guru means that they have the mandate to teach, have been through all the requirements and passed all the test to be allowed to teach.

    The word "Pendekar" however, is a different story. The most popular theory is that it's a combination of two words, "Pandai Akal", which literally means "clever mind". A pendekar, although is well-known for his prowess in Silat (or well-unknown, for most of the pendekar prefer to remain low profile),that doesn't neccessarily mean that he's a guru.

    That's because either he is:
    1-Not interested in teaching his art,although he have the permission. (yeah, lazy bump!!!)
    2-Have not yet recieved the mandate to teach, since his teacher is still alive
    (or his teacher is already dead, of all time, during his study-poor soul)
    3-He is only a trust holder, "pemegang amanah"- he can only handed down the Silat that he had learn once any individual who met certain critirea come to take back the silat.

    Guru carries higher social status than pendekar because like i said before, teaching is noble profession. Be a guru who teach any knowledge, not just silat alone, is indeed a noble profession.

    I hope this should explain the terminology, and its social implication.
  17. silatliam

    silatliam Valued Member

    Hello Narrue
    I'm glad to see the Christmas spirit is about again with all the Sanders anti bashing. Very cheap remark Narrue and have shown great example of false respect which is so very much about in the Silat. People talk about egos and claim to have no egos, but egos can be found in many many places. Its very sad at this time of Year where we all should be thinking about the meaning of Christmas, that we getting hung up on who is Pendekar Sanders and why he shouldnt use the title and especially since its a thing which no Indonesian would ever do? Which is totally false.

    On a recent occassion we had two Indonesian who claim to come from Tari Kolot village visit one of our clubs and after watching a display from the local school was told it was one of the most beautiful styles of Cimande they had ever seen. We dont hide our schools we out there in public so Narrue if you something to say come along and visit one of our Cimande schools and we can play.

    To answer your remarks, there are only one Pendekar in our group. I think there a total of 3 Guru Besars and maybe in total 12 Gurus spread out over USA and Europe we have a number of Guru Baharaus which we linked as Apprentice Instructors who help the Guru's, but to get to even to this level takes about 4 years of hard training, so what are you talking about, if you thought you could enter one of my classes and become to Guru inside 12 Months you would have a very rude awaking.

    Who is Pendekar Sanders? well he wrote 3 books on Cimande, made over 60 Videos of training material, being teaching for the past 20 Years across USA and Europe, has a Monthly column in Combat magazine, a member of Hall of Fame etc.. if you need more info please email me privately as I could go and on

    My last remark, is that time and time again I keep hearing only westerners only use titles and have no ego's this is nonsence I have seen Indonesian with huge egos and plenty of titles to add or call them by, so please dont go down that road, its not a Western thing nor a Indonesian thing its a human thing. I call my teacher William, he never never never made me nor any other student ever ever call him Pendekar, but we know him as this and when things need to be done officially or correct its only honourable to call him by the title he is.

    So guys unless you prepared to walk into one of our school and make your stupid remarks and be a true Silat warrior give it up on the old ( I jealous so I hate Pendekar Sanders jibes) concentrate on your own training and prove him wrong by the development of yourself and the style you practise.

    Liam ( just plain old Liam will do... ever L will do)
  18. Silk Road

    Silk Road New Member

    Asalaam Aleikum CQC,

    Thank you for your explanation. Do Malaysian Silat teachers prefer "Cikgu" to "Guru"?

  19. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Would the title Shifu be equivalent to guru then? Also I remember hearing that the title Empu is not only given to those skilled in making keris but also those that show great skill in other arts, is that true and if so what arts?
    In Indonesia dose an Empu have a much higher social rank then a Guru or pendekar. Also were any of the Empus of old also Pendekars?
  20. CQC

    CQC Arsenal Gear's A.I


    In silat context (in Malaysia,at least),it depends on the instructor himself /herself (and that depends on each perguruan).
    Some might prefer to be addressed as "cikgu".

    Most are prefer to be addressed as:
    1- "Abang"+his name as in Abang Husin (Bro. Husin),or
    2-"Pak"+his name as in Pak Kiai (uncle Kiai).

    The same goes for the woman.

    1-"Kak"+her name as in Kak Siti (Sister Siti)
    2-"Mak"+her name as in Mak Jah (Auntie Jah)

    But only few prefer to be addressed as "guru"

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