This is very interesting. The only people I am familiar with claiming to be the "founder" of Taekwon-Do besides Gen. Choi are Lee, Won Kuk and Kim, Bok Man. IIRC, GM Lee stated something along the lines that he was the "Father" of Taekwon-Do since the Chung Do Kwan was the earliest Kwan (apart from the Sang Moo Kwan). That was in an interview in Taekwon-Do Times back in the 1990's. But GM Lee wasn't even present at the naming committee in 1955 (having returned to Japan at that time, I think). Nor did he develop any patterns or technical differences from the Shotokan that he learned, as far as I know. I have read GM Kim, Bok Man's claim several times but I don't know what they are based on besides assisting Gen. Choi when he was developing some of the tul. GM Son, Duk Sung has claimed that he was the one who came up with the name Taekwon-Do but I've never heard anyone else validate that. Do you have sources for GM Ro, Byung Jik and GM Nam, Tae Hi claiming to have founded Taekwon-Do? I've ever heard this before and would be interested in seeing where (and when) they said that. GM Ro can certainly lay claim to having founded the first Kwan, and GM Nam was the co-founder of the Oh Do Kwan. But I've never heard them claim to have founded Taekwon-Do itself. Pax, Chris
Yes GM Lee did state that, based on as you say his early original Kwan. But as you rightfully point out, he fled SK in 1950 to escape political oppression from the authoritarian& corrupt Rhee regime. he really had very little to do with TKD's development. He was karate & taught his version of Korean karate, AKA Tangsudo. However it was his direct students that were major influences in the OhDoKwan & the Taesoodo martial sport movement. This is the basis of his claim. Check the Songmookwan's website, as they make the same claim based upon his Kwan being the 1st, about 6 months prior to the CDK. In all fairness to GM Ro Byung Jik, he was really the only 1 of the 5 original kwans to actually play a direct role in the TKD movement, under both Gen. Choi & the martial sport movement later on. He was involved in the 1959 KTA & followed Gen. Choi as the 4th president of the KTA (Taesoodo-TKD) in 1966. From what i understand GM Nam's name card makes that claim. This I would imagine as he was the St military instructor. GM Kim was instrumental in not only the patterns, but helping to lay out the system when he was with Gen. Choi in Malaysia. His influence can be seen in the Tuls, as the 1st 5 are drastically different in format from the later ones he was directly involved with helping. The claim of the last 2 are also IMHO based on the fact that they were the hands on martial artists & Gen. Choi was the general in his military uniform & not a Dobok, tending to many more things that physical SD training for the enlisted soldiers.
Yes, I just don't know how one can claim to be the "founder" of something that you weren't a part of. His students would have a stronger claim, IMO, than GM Lee does. But maybe he sees a distinction between being the "Father" of Taekwon-Do and being its "founder." Hmm, I see the claim that "The history of mdoern Taekwondo began on March 11, 1944 when Dang Soo Do-Song Moo Kwan was founded by Byung Jik Ro in KaeSung City, Korea." Honestly it seems to me that the context here is to lay claim as the earliest Kwan, not to founding Taekwon-Do, per se. This is because the sentence immediately following the one I quoted states that that the Chung Do Kwan was founded six months later. Additionally, both the Song Moo Kwan and Chung Do Kwan are said to teach "Dang Soo Do." The only Kwan listed as teaching Taekwon-Do in that section is ... the Oh Do Kwan. I would be very interested in seeing that card, as well as knowing when he started making that claim. He certainly helped found the Oh Do Kwan but I don't know how involved he was with the technical development of Taekwon-Do itself. Certainly would be an interesting topic to discuss if I ever had the opportunity. Very true about the nature of the earlier tul vs. those that developed later (and as a personal aside, I really like some of the earlier ones better, particularly Hwa-Rang and Ge-Baek; they are very combative in feeling IMO). Do you know what his input was on the other patterns? I know several other pioneers worked with Gen. Choi but they all seem to have said that their work was limited to, basically, performing the movements that Gen. Choi told them to when he had designed a tul and wanted to see it performed, as well as being sometimes asked what they thought of a particular technique. From what I have seen none have claimed to have actually invented any of the tul themselves (though perhaps some of the earlier ones developed may have been, at least in part, designed by senior Oh Do Kwan men). Also, in what way did GM Kim "lay out the system"? I am not really sure what that means. He has claimed to be the "technical founder" of Taekwon-Do, which I take to mean he actually developed the techniques used. I've never seen any explanation of his statementm however. It is interesting to note that he went on and developed his own martial art some time ago. In fact, I have seen him claim 11th dan in his own system. Undoubtedly. But I am unsure if teaching something is the same thing as founding it. I'm sure they'd disagree with me, though Pax, Chris
Couldn't agree more! Indeed it was his students & other 2nd generation leaders that made Kukki TKD. It was also mostly his students that staffed the ODK as well! Good point about father vs. founder It says right on their homepage, founder of modern TKD http://www.songmookwan.com/ But remember he was the only original kwan founder to be directly involved with TKD! SK for a long time (& maybe still does) listed him as founder of the ODK. The Modern History also has him teaching in the military since 1947. It also describes him as the martial artist & Gen. Choi called him his right hand man. He seems to have been there most every step of the way. I believe he was the one that instituted the symmetrical nature of the patterns, hence the equal movements to both sides, which are very different from the 1st 5 developed. He was supposedly the one who helped him write the book, but Gen. Choi took credit for it, as usually Generals do! LOL! I think since he was a hands on guy, he & Sgt. Han Cha Kyo worked out a lot of the physical things. Now as a Sgt-Major, the top Non-Comm rank in the ROK Army (& US Army, which SK is patterned after), this is the go to guy that Commissioned Officers rely on. It is very telling that Gen. Choi had him come to Malaysia, isn't it? Yes I am sure that everyone has their own perspectives! This is why I think it is vital to define your terms. To me it is simple, Gen. Choi was the principle founder of TKD. He led the soldiers under his command in creating a new system of KMA for SD, based on mostly karate. Then GMs Lee Chong Woo, Uhm Un Gyu & Lee Nam Suk, along with others, but these were the top 3, created Kukki or Olympic sport TKD. These main 2 styles or systems of TKD had common roots, karate from Japan, but developed away from their roots on separate & different paths!
Oops. I apparently missed that the first time I read through the site. The statement I quoted before was from the "History of Taekwondo" section of the web site. Interestingly, the Song Moo Kwan itself is listed as having taught "Dang Soo Do," while only the Oh Do Kwan is listed as teaching "Taekwondo." If GM Ro was the founder of Taekwon-Do I'd think that the Song Moo Kwan would've been listed as having taught Taekwon-Do before the Oh Do Kwan. (But maybe it's me.) Oh, I don't doubt GM Nam was heavily involved from day one. But I have heard that, basically, Gen. Choi would teach him and then he would teach the troops. (By that I don't think Gen. Choi was teaching GM Nam every aspect of what was then still Tang Soo but rather that he taught him the updated techniques he was developing and relied on GM Nam to spread those updates to the rest of the troops.) Does Gen. Choi mention GM Kim helping him with the early textbook in his memoirs? I don't recall one way or the other, though I'm pretty sure GM Kim is mentioned. Oh, sure. I don't doubt his skill at all. In fact, Gen. Choi was brilliant in that he surrounded himself by the people of the highest technical ability. Nam tae Hi, Han Cha Kyo, Kim Bok Man, Park Jong Soo, Park Jung Tae, C. K. Choi, and so many others. It's no coincidence that Gen. Choi was prmooted so fast, was called one of the best officers by four star general Paik Sun Yup, and wrote Korea's first book on military intelligence, IMNSHO. Couldn't agree more. While Gen. Choi had ample help in developing his system I have no trouble recognizing that he was the prime mover. I've always found it interesting that GM Nam Suk Lee was was involved with the ITF for a while (my instructors' first instructor was actually a member of the Chang Moo Kwan and was with the ITF himself for some time). Do you know if any other Kwan founders were involved with the ITF? Yes but sometimes I wish Gen. Choi didn't change the name of the Korea Tae Soo Do Association back to the Korea Taekwon-Do Association. Would've been much less confusing in retrospect! Pax, Chris
Yes & you now many WTFers point to the Modern History of TKD as a great piece of work that tells the true history of TKD. I think it is a valuable work, but it really confirms much of what I have been saying, that ITF TKD or Chang Hon TKD or Gen. Choi's TKD, was the ORIGINAL TKD. I think the SMK may use the reasoning that the original 5 kwans were the start of TKD & since they opened 1st, he was the founder! Original TKD came from Gen. Choi, plain & simple. Olympic of sport TKD came from the 2nd generation leaders, the students of the kwan founders, not the founders themselves! The 2nd generation leaders rejected what GM Hwang Kee, Dr. Yoon & Gen. Choi offered. They created a sport & called it Tae Soo Do. I added (Bok Man) so readers would know which GM Kim you refer to. I do not recall much mention in his memoirs with respect to credit. But Gen. Choi was told of his complaints & claims. To which Gen. Choi said, I was the general, but he added that he opened the doors for GM Kim to meet Kings, Sultans, Prime Ministers, Princes etc. "Did he think he could do that without me, that was how I paid him back" (The quotes are not direct, but rather used to illustrate it was Gen. Choi speaking. I of course paraphrased) Yes I read his book & have it! Gen. Choi was also promoted so fast, as the RoK Army was a new military & many moved up fast, as they needed to fill the chain of command with Koreans, even though some still answered to their junior American counterparts. He was brilliant & no Korean MAist wrote what he did & no MAist accomplished what he did. He was also Korea's 1st Ambassador to Malaysia, TKD's 2nd home & was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize! Those 3 I named were not Kwan Founders. No Kwan founders were involved in the ITF to any extent. 2 went missing during the Korean Civil War, GM Lee Won Kuk fled to Japan to escape political oppression in 1950. Only GM Ro Byung Jik had direct involvement with the TKD development process. He succeeded Gen. Choi as 4th President of the KTA, when Gen. Choi was pushed out of the KTA to form the ITF. So I am sure there was some involvement there, as the 2 groups co-existed.
Oh sorry, it was the latter book by Gen. Baik. I would guess that the military intelligence book by Gen. Choi would be available in the RoK's archives, unless it was purged!
Ha, yes I enjoyed Gen. Baik's book, too. I thought you might've meant Gen. Choi's book on military intelligence, though. I was going to be very jealous. I wonder if GM Choi or Mrs. Choi has a copy of it somewhere. Pax, Chris
I would doubt it, as Gen. Choi took very few things with him when he fled in secrecy when he exiled to Canada to escape political oppression by the brutal military dictatorship. He packed simple, as he would for any trip abroad he took for TKD. His wife & a daughter were left out afterwards, with the help of the Dominican President who intervened on behalf of Gen. Choi, due to the efforts of GM Jhoon Rhee & his Dominican student Jose "Cookie" Reyes, the one who took TKD to the DR. He was educated in the USA (Texas) & worked at the US Embassy or Consulate in Santo Domingo. Master Choi Jung Hwa & the other daughter were also subsequently released after attempts to coax back Gen. Choi failed. The were let go presumedly to avoid an embarrassing orphan situation! So I am very sure that a military book form the 1950s was not something they looked to take. ;(
Sir: Did you see the ITF & WTF presidents met at the German Open? I made notice of it on another thread. (Olympic thread)
