Chow Gar takedowns clip

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by David, Mar 30, 2006.

  1. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

  2. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Who is the bald fellow in the clip (the taker downer)?
  3. MartialArtN00b

    MartialArtN00b New Member

    I wouldnt rely on it.
  4. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.

    Alot of unneccesary movement in my eyes. the takedown should be a quick 1 2! BANG on your ass. I don't envision SPM as much of a standup grappling fighting form..

    I could be wrong! And I hope I am! but there was some good stuff in there, but I'd like to see full speed with some body armor for peoples safety. Just to make sure... :)
  5. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    You are looking at the auxillary movement that occurs before and after the takedown.

    Take the first one. The actual takedown consists of 2 movements.

    1. Push/uproot.
    2. Hook the leg as he's on the way out.
    3. Pull the leg up.

    So that one is a 1 2 3 BAM! You are on your ass.

    The second one.

    1. Push your head through his armpit and loop your arm around his neck to gain control of his center.
    2. Use the control to push him over your leg.

    The third one.

    1. Step to the outside of the punch and towards your opponent at the same time, putting your leg behind his while gaining the underhook. 4 things are happening at the same time: evade, close the gap, make the bridge, and block off his foot.
    2. Push him over your foot.

    Obviously there will be auxilliary movement in order to set up any throw or take down attempt.
  6. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    That was so nearly an opinion. Do try harder next time.

    Striking's only about a quarter of Chow Gar. We've always got at least one eye on the other guy's centre-of-gravity with a view to taking it away from him. I think Yohan explained the "unecessary movement" when he Stated The Obvious for you.

  7. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    From what I've seen, Jook Lum is about 80% striking - the other 20% is a setup . . . so that you can strike.
  8. MartialArtN00b

    MartialArtN00b New Member

    In my uninformed n00bness:

    1st takedown;
    the push makes him transfer his weight to his back leg. Hence hooking his leading leg does nothing because his whole balance would be on this rear leg.

    2nd and 3rd takedown:

    He uses his opponent's heel as the fulcrum for the the takedown... usually its supposed to be closer to his center.
    The reason why it seems to work so well is because he's gripping the throat.

    4th takedown
    A compliant standing shoulder lock...

    Seriously, this seem to work because of compliance and throat grabs.

    Im no judoka or even a grappler but come on...
  9. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    That's better :D

    I take your point but you're so wrong in your conclusion. You can't see the wood for the trees. I think if I'd labelled the clip "throat and limb attacks", you'd have had no complaints about the guys going down.

    The point of mantis is to attack first and to put down afterwards. It's 100% more efficient than that "let's lay down together and sort this out like men" mentality.

    Chow Gar has highly-developed principles of balance and attack, and it uses a lot of headology in its attacks: a confused opponent is easier to handle. And I don't mean feints - which are pathetic IMO.

  10. MartialArtN00b

    MartialArtN00b New Member

    Any throws and takedowns are easier to execute when you grab the throat.

    But since we try to practice safe, we grab the shoulder or lapel instead.

    I could execute a 'tiger' sweep or throw by use of constricting my opponent's windpipe and take him down. But the takedown doesnt need to have a hold on the throat, you just need to have a good grip, and a good stance.

    Grabbing the throat just amplifies the technique of the takedown as you can also spike his head. And a takedown is already an attack.

    This demo assumes that the person can get to the throat easily. But with good throwing skills, even if he cant grab the throat, he can slam him into the ground just as easily.

    Its about covering all your bases.

    Anyways its just a demo, so I shouldnt be overly critical.
  11. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    Ok, I guess that goes back to what I said: we're more concerned with the throat attack (or whatever attack) and the takedown is the follow-up.

    Maybe we shouldn't call em takedowns? :)

  12. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing. Especially with the very first takedown, it was pretty unrealisic.
  13. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    The first one was a great example of how Chow Gar uses its legs for attacking the root of the opponent and shows some of the elements of a close-in, short-hand system.

    Sifu Grant Guirey (the "bald fellow", Yohan) uses his forearm against the opponents torso, whilst planting a strong left leg inside the lead leg of the opponent and hitting the pressure point on the inner thigh with his knee at a 45 degree angle. It was a flavour of leg sweep, upright and street-applicable. Basic mantis stepping footwork where the idea is to make everything count all the time.

    The collapse of the opponents right leg causes the guy to pull that leg back to find stability (remember, he was shoved, too). This left him in a left-lead stance with his weight and centre-of-gravity arriving over his rear-right leg.

    Grant then does a very mantis thing and immediately hooks back with his attacking left foot against the empty lead leg of the opponent, hoiking the foot upwards and furthering the backwards energy felt by the opponent through rotation.

    He caught the foot and gently put the opponent on his face.

    Of course there are counters to the techniques shown. That doesn't mean the techs don't work. It's in the nature of training and demonstration that most times, certain things get left out inorder to make a point. Chow Gar training starts with fixed drills of such things and then gradually loosens them up by introducing alternatives and then letting the students and practitioners get creative on both sides.

    It ain't dancing!

  14. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    Didn't like the first take down, sorry but to my eyes there are just too many things that can go wrong with it.

    The other takedowns seemed fine to me by and the large, all quite similar to ones that I've seen in Ju Jitsu but to me it looked like there wasn't enough unbalancing of the opponent which leaves you kind of open to them pushing you over/repositioning there feet because for the second and third takedowns your moving into what is essentially a mutual positiion without the unbalancing.
  15. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    You talk like it's a prescribed method... Like if something had "gone wrong", then he'd have been scratching his head trying to think of his next move... Which says more about you than Chow Gar :D.

  16. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    No, no I'm pretty sure what my post said was that I didn't like the movement into a position that will basically bedcome a conest of strength.
  17. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    Strength? No contest :D. In Chow Gar, we love our strength training; it's often reported by gym jock MAs as a key reason for switching to it. That's not my answer...

    Unbalancing happens in two places, one of which is the body (Newton and all that). The other is the mind: a sharp pull, push or strike that twists the person causes disorientation. It's the setup for something you wouldn't otherwise get away with. Initial contact with mantis can be like someone reaching in your car window whilst you're driving and yanking on the steering wheel.

    I was talking to a retired policeman the other evening and we had a laugh about the definitions of "distract" and "restrain". A distraction technique is to whack somebody when your actual aim is to subdue and restrain them. It's the same down-to-earth idea.

    I've been away from the boards last week due to days off, reinstalling my office PC and killing my home PC through reckless DIY. Does anybody know a cure for the desire to fix things that aren't broke? :( Just got this ol' laptop to connect on my broadband this morning. Hooray :(

  18. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Alcohol - before long you'll be fixing things that ARE broke.

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