Literally "grabbing and holding/moving," it's a general term for joint lock-type moves in CMA. It can be broadly divided into xiao, zhong and da (small, medium and large) qinna, "small" being manipulation of the fingers, wrists or ankles; "middle" qinna being locks or manipulations of the elbows or knees; and "large" being manipulation of the shoulder or hip joints. Qinna is considered seperate from "shuaijiao" or throwing/grappling (also the name of a stand-alone discipline), although all CMAs have both and one often leads to the other. Some CMAs emphasize it more than others, but it exists to some extent in pretty much any system.
Qin (Capture) - 擒 Na (Hold/Seize)- 拿 Ｔｏｇｅｔｈｅｒ 擒拿 ＱｉｎＮａ （ｉｎ ＰｉｎＹｉｎ） ｇｅｎｅｒａｌｌｙ ｒｅｆｅｒｓ ｔｏ ｌｏｃｋｉｎｇ， ｃｏｎｔｒｏｌｌｉｎｇ ａｎｄ ｐｒｅｓｓｕｒｅ ｐｏｉｎｔ ｔｅｃｈｎｉｑｕｅｓ ｆｒｏｍ ｔｈｅ Ｃｈｉｎｅｓｅ Ｍａｒｔｉａｌ Ａｒｔｓ （ＣＭＡ）systems. They are usually incorporated into many CMAs as a separate identity on it's own. Many styles will have forms specifically identified as a 擒拿 (Qin Na) form...These techniques are excellent for manipulation of close-quarters combat. Refer to http://www.martialartsadvice.com/art.php?cat=5&art=86&p=1 for more info...
You could, but you have to have people who completely trust each other and completely understand what Chin Na is about. It could not be full bore sparring because there is too much at stake. Many techniques wrench tendons, and misplace bones. If a technique is done too quickly, you've got an injury and an unhappy insurance company. The part of Chin Na that just has to do with separation from an aggressive opponent is a different story. Here you are not digging into pressure points or twisting joints in an unnatural way.
Yes. Not just escapes, but the holds, locks, and manipulations. What's the point of studying it if you don't apply it? If you can't apply it in the kwoon, you won't be able to apply it for self-defense purposes...
Indeed. Qinna is something that properly applied is amazing for joint flexibility... every Qinna technique will generally have a counter lock or throw you can apply, its just a matter of figuring out which ones work for your situation. Its only when you get paired off with a partner who lacks control is where you see injuries typical to Qinna appear more and more often. And nobody likes to get their muscles separated from the tendon, or getting a joint or bone misplaced. Or being struck so hard you end up pressing and sealing a pulse. Personally I really look forward to learning it in Mantis. So much in fact I went out and purchased a book titled "Shaolin Chin Na" to familiarize myself with the techniques so I can comprehend each techniques specific purpose. Granted the book I purchased isn't the end all be all of Qinna, but its a damn good start.
Yes we do...more of the lockings and grappling techniques and escapes...but not the pressure points etc due to the sparring gloves on our hands...The gloves causes a lack of precision due to the wide gloves... It allows you to learn to apply the techniques learnt...more precision dependant techniques can be practiced during training such as push hands (推手 )...
Check out some of the Kuk Sool soo ki. It's amazing how much influence CMA had on the system's joint locking techniqes. I think it comes from the buddhist arts that are incorporated. They were directly influenced by monks traveling through Southern China. We use joint locking in our workouts everday. We're very respectful of the protocol of the tap and I think the techniqes have definitely had an impact on my joint flexibility. The thing about joint locks and pressure point strikes is that you have to feel them done on you properly to fully appreciate their existence. The techniques have to be practiced until the motions of the techniques flow naturally and without hesitation or they are generally pretty escapeable. What I like about chin na is the fact that there are counter chin nas for every one of them. I learned a really cool Eagle Claw chin na form that just flowed from one partner's lock to the other partner's. I really is beautiful how the locks just flow from one another when the form tempo has been established between the artists.
if you do then its not sparring, its fighting... or just training qinna. these thechniques are used to END the fight, not spar. simple as. of course train in it by all means, a good/confident wrist break isnt just effective to end a street fight. in 3 months when the agressor tries to make a fist the hand will open just as fast in a spasm of pain remembering the snap .
MAN, qin na is slowly integrated into sparring. Remember, crawl, walk, run. Hands, body, mind. First, learn the pattern. Second, learn the set drills (lock/counterlock, line vs. line freestyle or the choke drills, etc.). Third, learn the qin na in the ling of the forms. Fourth, try it out in sticky hands. Fifth, try it out in sparring. Best wishes.
I have always believed in the "crawl, walk, run" school of thought when it comes to sparring. It makes infinate sense, and it works. Sometimes the simple, logical approach is overlooked. To not spar at all or just sic people on each other has never made any sense to me.
Trigger time is extremely vital as well. No other way to get the feel and work with different body types. Most people do not get enough trigger time and get discouraged. I've read that it takes up to 13,000 repitions to put something in your long term memory. Remember, the Gracies and Machados trained for 12 hours a day in di tang qin na shr at Judge Machado's summer home. Do not be discouraged with your twice a week practice for 90 minutes (or whatever).
At some point it becomes an automatic response of the northern praying mantis or baji practitioner. I cant remember exactly when it become automatic for me but i will reassert that the locking of joints all over the opponent will occur during strikes take downs and even on first contact. It becomes a plague if you enter a ring with rules against it because it does not go away once it is part of you. It is as if a simple progression occurs inside the fighter that he or she begins to target joints as secondary targets after the traditional soft targets. The progression from the first range to the secong inevitablely leds to chin na in the third (if i didnt use it while striking).
Are you saying the Gracies trained in Chinese groundfighting (di tang qin na shu=art of locking/grappling on the ground)?? I've certainly never heard such a thing.
Sure about that.. From what I know.. history goes like this.. In 1914 a Japanese Judo and jiu-jitsu master named Mitsuo Maeda (called Count Koma) came to Brazil. In return for help from the Brazilian politician Gastao Gracie, Koma taught jiu-jitsu to Gastao's son Carlos. Carlos in turn taught his brothers (most notably Helio). They went on to further refine the art via constant no-rules competition, developing what is now known as Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. BJJ doesn't look like any Qinna I've ever seen.. if anything Qinna is more fluid and finishes fights faster, but isn't quite accepted as a legit way of ring fighting
Yeah, that's the story I've always heard--that the Gracies' teacher, Maeda was a Jujutsu guy. I'm saying I never heard of Maeda or any of the Gracies studying a CHINESE system of groundfighting like "di tang qin na shu," as El Tejon seems to be saying.
ony, no, of course not. The Machados and Gracies were used as an analogy. They trained all day for days/years upon end. Do not be frustrated if it takes one's qin na training to kick in after a 1.5 hour long class every week. I apologize if I created any confusion, it was not my intent.
